Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:05:31 -0600
From: wanewman
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] pogies vs. gloves

I used to think that worrying about a spray skirt freezing onto the cockpit rim was
just being paranoid.  However while paddling one October on Lake Michigan in 3 to 5
foot seas and 20 F temperatures I had actually witnessed a close call with a frozen
skirt.  My friend and I were coming in over a sand bar to land after a short day
paddle.  I crossed the bar first and he followed but flipped in the surf.  He tried
to roll twice then, since we were near shore I figured I would just see my friend
punch out and swim in to shore.  I waited and was concerned about his taking so
long, but I did not want to try a bow rescue in the surf on the bar since I would
likely have bashed him on the head trying to make contact.  When I was ready to
bail out and swim to him he finally came to the surface sputtering and very pissed
off!

Not only had his spray skirt frozen to the deck, but when he pulled the grab look,
it tore off of the skirt.  He said he had to pound on the skirt and tear loose one
or two inches at a time off of the rim.  Its not likely that this sort of thing
will happen, but I definitely keep and eye on my skirt for icing and crack off any
ice before it gets too thick - seeing is believing when it comes to this unexpected
danger.



Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 09:54:11 EST
From: Tomckayak
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Lets hear your near death experience. (was pogies vs. gloves

This reminded my of the last time I almost drown in a kayak. It was this
spring, after three hours of riding my Mariner MAX (a 17 foot Sea Kayak) in
small surf. I had started to make mistakes a sign I was getting tired.
Intending to land I surfed in to shore. Vary casually I stop in shallow water
and toss my paddle in ahead of my.  Why I did this I do not know. It is
something I near ever do!  I always hold on to the paddle with a death grip! I
tip over intending to bale out but my gloved hands cannot find the grab loop
on the neoprene spray shirt. OK I will just pull the sides off. No good! OK I
will push myself out with leg power against the skirt. NO GOOD! I try pushing
off the bottom with both hands. I can't get my head out of the water. I make
another search for the grab loop but can no find it and another pull on the
sides of skirt!  Air has run out and I can see my life running out! I think
this is a stupid way to go! Who will drive my car back home? I try a hand roll
something I near mastered in this Sea Kayak. With one hand against the sand
bottom and my head on the back deck and the other arm stretched out to the sky
I get the boat angled part way up and my head above water. The first thing I
see is Tom Lender sitting in his surf boat four feet away. I call for help and
before the kayak tips over in the next wave, spot about half an inch of the
grab loop poking out of the front of the spry skirt. This time I find it and
get out. 

This situation was created by a number of small mistakes that combined into a
close encounter with termination. 
Operational choices: 

Out to long, decide to exit before I get on to beach, let go of 
paddle.  Not using a sit-on-top:)

Equipment:

Tight spray shirt with hard to find grab loop combined with neoprene gloves.
No spare paddle.

I now have a large carabiner clipped to the grab loop.
Lets hear your near death experience.



Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:47:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Steve Cramer 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Lets hear your near death experience. (was pogies vs. gloves

Hmmm, flipped over, getting worked by the surf, tucked forward, kissing
the skirt, whacked in the face by a large carabiner. Doesn't sound like
fun to me, Tom. Learn from the WW guys and use a whiffle golf ball
instead. 

Steve Cramer                     
Test Scoring & Reporting Services      Sometimes you never can 
University of Georgia                    always tell what you 
Athens, GA 30602-5593                      least expect the most.



Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:00:42 -0500
From: John Waddington 
Subject: [Paddlewise] cold paddling

This is for Bob Denton and all those others in the South who don't know
what they are missing here in the North.

I just got back from my last paddle of 1998.  We started on the ice and
did a seal entry (I only got one hand wet).  Since the water is right at
freezing temperature and the air is -22 C (-8F), a thick layer of steam
is in the air, much like fog.  Many of the trees and almost all of the
bushes on the shoreline are coated with a thick layer of hoar frost
(sparkly white chrystals) making everything into a white fantasy land. 
As we paddled up river just outside the ice line, the waves from the
kayaks caused the ice to make a high pitched tone, almost like singing. 
The sun was coming through the mist brightly enough that my companion,
who was only about 10 metres away made a grey silhouette, sometimes
fading from sight then reappearing like a ghost.  By the time that we
got back my beard was also thickly coated with frost and there was a
layer of ice on my paddle, outside the drip rings, about a quarter inch
thick.  To get out we had to get up lots of speed then lean back just as
we hit the ice.  The kayak would run part way up onto the ice, then
break down through.  Two or three runs at it and we could glide right up
onto solid ice near my boathouse.  Then it just took a few paddle pushes
to move to thicker ice where we could step out.  It was one of the most
beautiful paddling settings that I could imagine, and not a personal
water craft in sight.  The only thing missing was that I could have used
some of those cheap imitation ballast rocks to break the ice.  I
wouldn't want to risk losing some of my good Canadian Ballast Rocks (TM)
by having them break through and sink.

I do have to admit though, that I am envious of you folks in the warmth,
being able to paddle in T-shirts and shorts.  We only have 5-6 months to
wait and we'll be able to do that too.

Happy New Year to all,

John



Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 13:08:20 -0800
From: rdiaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] cold paddling

This talk of ice reminds me of the one time years ago in which I was
able to lure my wife out for a winter trip up here.  It was a day in
which the air temperature hit around 60 with not a whiff of wind.  One
of these crazy days we get in January when air temperature can get
pretty springlike.

But this was the Hudson around West Point.  The river was not totally
frozen from bank to bank but it was massed in large fields of ice.  We
paddled through leads here and there between the huge fields.  Sometimes
we would have to do that ramming up on the ice and breaking the last
part of lead to get into wider areas where we could swing our paddles.

Well guess what we saw coming down river.  A Coast Guard icebreaker on
one of its runs to clear the shipping channel that supplies points north
all the way up to Albany.  We were in one of the leads and could see
that the icebreaker's mission was closing monstrous fields of ice in on
us.  We frantically dodged from lead to lead as one after the other
squeezed behind and ahead of us.  The grinding sounds reminded me of
documentaries about Arctic ice or the plight of Shakelton's ship in the
Antarctic.

We eventually worked our way over to the channel and followed the broad
highway through the ice left in the icebreaker's wake back down to our
takeout at West Point.  1,000 to 1,500 foot hills make this part of the
river a veritable fiord.  They loomed above us, snow white and rock grey
streaked in evergreen.  The river was eery silent except for the
groaning sounds of ice.  The deep coldness of the river contrasted with
the balmy stillness of the air.  The trip is etched in memory.

Oh for the benefit of the hypothermia police.  We did dress marginally
adequately for the water temperature, which had to be in the
30s---farmer john neoprene, paddle jackets and pants, nylon and
polyester pile tops.  We also were in a very stable Klepper double and
the guy with us in a solid Dirigo that wasn't going to go over.  My only
concern was that some of the sharp ice might slash the hypalon hull, but
it left not a mark.  The stuff is tougher than most people realize.

I think I will have to keep my ear sharp to see if sometime this month
such conditions are duplicated once more and go out again.  I don't
think however, that there is much ice on the river yet.

ralph diaz
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; 
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 21:13:16 EST
From: WildConect
Subject: [Paddlewise] freezing

Ended 1998 by paddling, and began 1999 by paddling.  While the air temp was
around 8 degrees F, and the wind chill down around -18 F, the main problem was
the ice build up on our PFDs, spray skirts, tow belts, deck lines, skeg
lines--basically everything.  If we'd had to use a tow line, the carbiners
were frozen.  Skegs were rendered inoperable by the ice build up.  After we
got back to shore it was quite an effort to unfreeze the zipper on our PFD for
the trip home.  Just wondering how others have dealt with similar
problems--besides moving to a warmer area, or not paddling in such conditions.
Has anyone had any success with preventive icing measures.  I was thinking of
using a wax, or silicone, or something similar.  Anyone have any ideas?
Thanks.

John Browning
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
where Lake Michigan is more like a slurpie than a lake



Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 10:15:38 -0500
From: "Larry Bliven" 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] freezing

it would be real interesting to read tips from freezing paddlers. here's a
link that tells how one fellow handles freezing biking... although a post
like this for freezing paddling would be a classic for sure, tips from lots
of folks would provide a broader spectrum of info.

http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/bicycles-faq/part4/faq-do
c-39.html



Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 15:01:24 EST
From: Bhansen97
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] freezing

Jon Browning asked about ways to prevent zipper freeze in frigid weather.
Though I do paddle in winter, I haven't paddled in conditions such as those he
describes (and I don't plan to), but my friend and teacher Tom Bergh convinced
me to try candle wax as lubricant for drysuit zippers, and it's a very good
lubricant for that purpose. That should work, I'd think. If not, why not melt
a little parafin wax, the kind used for canning, in the top of a double
boiler, and paint that on the zipper?
 - Bill Hansen



Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 03:05:12 -0600
From: "Sarah Ohmann" 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Waxing Drysuit Zippers

A friend of mine who dives suggested using paraffin for drysuit zippers,
which I started doing (he recommended doing it year round to keep the zipper
working smoothly).  However, I just carry a little cake of it and run it up
and down the zipper once or twice.  I was warned not to overdo it...  But,
no melting is required.  It does make the zipper easier to open and close,
but I don't know if it will prevent freezing in the winter.

Sarah Ohmann



Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 18:04:45 -0700
From: Philip Wylie 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] freezing

A caution is offered here for what it's worth. 

I used bees wax on my technical jacket and guess what? 

The zipper does not want to hold together. Lack of friction causes
both halves of the zipper to want to easily separate whenever.
Alcohol rub down via a cloth and tooth brush was needed to 
restore the needed friction back to the zipper. All in all
it seems that a happy functioning zipper (plastic that is)
doesn't like wax but rather cleanliness and freedom from
fuzz balls. I once ripped the crotch out of my neoprene
diving suit during a winter dive (minus 15 below zero) and
got the screaming meemies. Now to have a dry suit separate
at the zipper would be a horror as well. What does the manufacturer
say or recommend? Silicon spray via that tiny little straw
tube might be a better solution (I dunno) but gosh I was frustrated
over my jacket separating at the primary zipper at 30 below
during New Years Festivities. For me the wax turned out to be
a poor idea of mine. Now I suspect the dry suit has metal zippers
so the silicon spray  "might be"  a better idea. 

Cheers,


Philip



Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 06:35:26 -0500 (EST)
From: "Mark H. Hunt"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] freezing

      Though I no longer seem to do much winter paddling here in Maine 
(opting instead to build new additions to the fleet) I used to do a fair 
ammount of solo winter paddling 15 or so years back. The two problems 
that come to mind presently are substantial icing on the deck and paddle 
shafts (near the blades) which would actually make the boat top-heavy. 
Crossings sometimes get pretty iffy because of this. Also, I had two 
reasonably heavy FG boats wear through the bow at the water line after 
cutting through extensive skim ice on the ocean. All considered, it's a 
dangerous time of year to be paddling out there.....
                                                         mark



Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 07:55:28 EST
From: Bhansen97
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] freezing

Philip - Thanks for the cautionary note on waxing drysuit zippers. Having been
a beekeeper for some years (in the past - not now), I have quite a bit of
experience with beeswax. It really is too slippery for many things. It also
melts at a rather low temp, so I'm not too surprised that it caused trouble.
The Kokotat rep said candelwax is okay, and so far candelwax has allowed
reasonably free operation of the drysuit zipper with no hint of unwanted
unzipping. I haven't used paraffin, which would have a lower melting temp, but
apparently one other paddlewise person has used it, and has found it helpful
(and not dangerous).

Another thing about beeswax - if it gets too near a flame, it's almost
explosive. So if you're lighting your cigar and your drysuit catches fires,
then you jump in the water and.....  

Bill



Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:47:58 -0600 
From: "Dickson, Dana A." 
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Ice Swimming

I have not tried submerging at 3 degrees F., but I have come close.  Last
spring I went for a swim in Lake Superior in my gortex dry suit after I had
been paddling for a couple of hours.  Like you, I was interested in seeing
if the insulation I had on was sufficient and to try swimming in cold water
with a dry suit.  My insulation was patagonia stretch polypropylene with 200
weight fleece pants and sweater in addition.  My feet were insulated with
fleece socks and gortex socks.  I pulled the latex gasket over the top of
the gortex sock to get a smooth relatively water tight seal.  The air
temperature was in the 50's F.  The water temperature was in the upper 30's
F.  My insulation was too much for paddling, I quickly became uncomfortable
in the dry suit.  I found I could cool down quickly by immersing my hands in
the lake.  When I stopped paddling I went for a short swim. I found that the
insulation that had been too much when I was paddling was not enough when I
was swimming.  The moisture in my insulation appeared to help transfer my
body heat to the cold lake water.  Also the cold water on my hands greatly
reduced my dexterity. The dry suit and PFD interferred with my ability to
swim.  I came to much the same conclusion as Chuck, it was an interesting
experiment, and I would not want to put myself in a position where I may
have to swim any substantial distance to safety in cold water.

Dana Dickson



Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:14:36 -0500 
From: "Sisler, Clyde" 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] New Year's Paddle

And a conclusion: Icing reduces one's safety margin
considerably. Paddling in such cold weather is an interesting
experiment, but I don't recommend it for extended trips.

- - -----------------

Interesting comments.  Have you (or anyone else) ever had the nerve to walk
into the water and submerge yourself in your drysuit before or after a
paddle in that kind of weather?

I feel I have to do that before my first cold paddle because a) I want to
know in general what it's really like in a controlled situation and b) to
ensure I have enough insulation.

------------------------------



Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 11:47:19 -0500
From: Steven LaDue
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Ice Swimming

  Having spent many hours underwater in a dry suit while scuba diving, I 
know it gets cold.  The suit that I used was vulcanized rubber with a thick 
insulation suit underneath.  Experience showed that the more air that was 
inside the suit, the warmer I was.  Water compresses any insulation reducing 
it's ability to keep you warm.  Many times I would have to float with my feet 
higher than my head just to get the air around my feet to warm them up.  I 
also found that a good fitting wet suit worked just as well as my dry suit 
will under water, the dry suit was better during the entry and exit from 
the shore. Just food for thought.

Steve LaDue



Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:10:37 -0900
From: David Seng 
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] New Year's Paddle

Hi Clyde,

 I was out paddling last Saturday in fairly cool conditions - the air
temperature was 33F and the water temperature was a brisk 38F.  I was
wearing a GoreTex drysuit with midweight Capilene top and bottoms and
then 200 weight fleece pants and a lightweight old wool long-john top.
I had a pair of neoprene booties on my feet and a lightweight pair of
"leather" palmed, neoprene backed gloves on my fingers.  Before
embarking on a 3 hour paddle I waded out about waist deep into the water
to "burp" the drysuit.  The water in the booties was a mite chilly, but
soon warmed up once I began paddling.  At the end of the paddle, when I
was all warmed up (HOT!) I decided to practice some paddle float
re-entries and some re-entries and rolls.  (Unfortunately forgetting
about the camera that I had stuffed into the front of my PFD!)  The cold
shock of the water on my unprotected head was quite unpleasant, but not
incapacitating and I was "comfortable" and functional for about 15
minutes of active playing around in the water.  Discovery of the camera
(I'll find out just how waterproof a Pentax WR-90 actually is) ended the
water time.
 I've debated getting a neoprene hood, but I over-heat quite easily and
wonder if I would really wear it while paddling (and am not sure whether
my glasses would interfere or get bent).  
 I don't think that I would have been comfortable for that long if I had
simply been floating in the water (ie. injured, lost kayak etc) - the
high level of activity had to help keep me warm.  
 By all means give cold weather paddling a try - it can be great fun.
My first winter forays were always in group conditions and usually just
"surfing" sessions where a dump into the water meant at worst a 200 yard
swim to shore.  I swam a lot. :-)
 Be safe and have fun. 

Dave Seng
Juneau, Alaska



Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 13:51:42 -0500
From: Michael Daly
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] New Year's Paddle

I paddled on Jan 1 1998 with some folks in Windsor ON on
the Detroit river.  This was an annual event for them and some
paddlers had considerable experience with paddling in ice
infested waters.  One fellow had a pair of Philips screwdrivers
under the bungies on his fore deck.  He had drilled holes in the
tops of the handles and ran lines through them.  The other end
of the line was tied to a snap hook that was hooked to the bungies.

One paddler went over and lost his paddle in the process.  When
we got to him, he was hanging on a tad hypothermic (cotton sweat
suit, wind breaker - left his wet suit at home because he thought it
would be a nice day [+3C, wind chill about -5C]).   We got him into
his kayak and tried to pump it out.  His built-in pump had fouled with
a line he had on the floor of the cockpit.  By them we had blown over
to Peche Island and decided to go ashore there and get him into
dry clothes (between the two of us - his rescuers - we had a complete
set of dry clothes, hot tea, emergency blankets, a tarp etc.).  The island
was surrounded by an ice sheet about 10-15 metres out from the
shore.  We drifted into a little bay out of the wind and did a seal
landing onto the ice.

This is where I found out what the screwdrivers were for.  The leader
paddled full speed onto the ice, whereupon he tossed his tethered
paddle onto the ice, grabbed his screwdrivers and used them as
picks to drag himself up onto the ice.  Once secure, he towed me onto
the ice and I towed the soaked paddler up.  We got him to dry land
and into dry clothes. The ice was thin and quite a jumble of rafted
pieces about 3 cm thick.  I went through a few times, usually up to my
mid calf of one leg.  Once I went through with both legs to mid thigh.
My layers of wet suit, neoprene socks and reef boots kept the water
out and I only got a tad damp.  My mistake was leaving the kayak and
walking to shore - next time I'd use the kayak as a sort of sled and take
it all the way to shore.

The fellow was taken away by other paddlers who had borrowed an
ice canoe (used for ice racing in the Quebec Winter Carnival) from
Steve Lutsch of Shining Waters.  The oars of this canoe (it's really
a kind of double ended row boat in spite of its name) had spikes on
them and they could pull right up onto the ice.  They dragged the
canoe to shore, put the paddler in and rowed back to Windsor, with
his kayak in tow.  We intended to paddle close behind, since we
expected the towed kayak to capsize and wanted to assist.  We
couldn't keep up to the six oarsman going full tilt into the wind,
however.  The now dry paddler had a full recovery with no problems.
We were the heroes of the after paddle party.

So  -  Philips screwdrivers - that's the key!

PS - The biggest problem I had that day was with frazile ice.  Frazile
ice is the fine crystals that form before an ice sheet congeals.  It's
a bit like paddling in a thin Slurpie.  I found that it made turning
very difficult.



Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:26:51 -0500
From: Bill Leonhardt 
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] New Year's Paddle

At 08:10 AM 1/5/99 -0900, David Seng David wrote:

SNIP

> I've debated getting a neoprene hood, but I over-heat quite easily and
>wonder if I would really wear it while paddling (and am not sure whether
>my glasses would interfere or get bent).  

Dave,

Why not get a neoprene hood and carry it on your person.  (ie. Tucked into
your PFD or a pouch or a spry skirt pocket, whatever.)  When you find
yourself swimming, put the hood on before attempting any self rescues, etc.

Bill



Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:44:49 -0500 
From: Bob Denton 
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] New Year's Paddle

One item I use for warm water diving is a diver's polartech hood...light
weight, comfortable and pocket sized. It might make all the difference in an
emergency.



Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:57:53 -0500
From: Edwin D Milnes 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] New Year's Paddle

I also have problems with the day hatch getting stiff on my romany, to
the point were I can't open it in the boat. I have started keeping a
small dry bag full of "essentials" behind the seat or on the floor
between my legs. Though Long Island sound were I do most of my paddling
probably dosn't get as cold as some other areas of the U.S, I've been
using a cold water dive hood and dive mask for rolling practice. In
water temps as cold as 35 deg F. you don't feel a thing. The hood is too
constricting and deadens sound too much to wear as normal paddling
"garb". I've been using a Eastern Mountain sports Balaclava with a
gortex lined face area. This is pretty comfortable and stays warm when
it gets wet, though I've never capsized wearing it.



Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:33:19 EST
From: Bluecanoe2
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] New Year's Paddle

In a message dated 1/5/1999 10:42:12 AM EST, CHUCK writes:

<< I considered wading into the river after my takeout, but the current
 and the knowledge that I would be standing around in a windchill below
 zero afterward dissuaded me. I know others who have done it, though,
 and it is something I would like to try in other circumstances -- say,
 just as the ice is going off the city lakes. >>

Windchill is the calculated effect the wind has on wet skin, not on clothed,
dry suited skin.  Although the wind does have an effect on the amount of heat
removed from your body through teh insulation layers and the dry or wet suit.
The effect is similar, but not the same.  It is like measuring apples and
oranges.

John LeBlanc



Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:41:44 EST
From: JCMARTIN43@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] New Year's Paddle

In a message dated 1/5/99 5:04:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, emilnes
writes:

<<  Though Long Island sound were I do most of my paddling probably dosn't get
as cold as some other areas of the U.S, I've been using a cold water dive hood
and dive mask for rolling practice.  The hood is too constricting and
deadens sound too much to wear as normal paddling "garb". >>

As an option to a neoprene hood --- which is what I'm assuming you mean ---
try one of the Malden Mills Thermal Stretch material hoods sold by some dive
shops and a lot of the catalogs, Edwin.  It's lined with Polartec but has a
wind and water membrane and a black lycra outer layer, is very warm and is
comfortable enough to be used full time, and is as warm in the water as two to
three mil neoprene.  Your hearing will be virtually uneffected when it's dry
and only slightly effected when rolling or sculling.  Great item for the
winter!

Jack Martin



Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:00:59 -0600
From:  (Chuck Holst)
Subject: [Paddlewise] FW: New Year's Paddle

At 18:33 05-01-99 EST, Bluecanoe2 wrote:
>
>
>In a message dated 1/5/1999 10:42:12 AM EST, CHUCK writes:
>
><< I considered wading into the river after my takeout, but the current
> and the knowledge that I would be standing around in a windchill below
> zero afterward dissuaded me. I know others who have done it, though,
> and it is something I would like to try in other circumstances -- say,
> just as the ice is going off the city lakes. >>
>
>Windchill is the calculated effect the wind has on wet skin, not on   clothed,
>dry suited skin.  Although the wind does have an effect on the amount of   heat
>removed from your body through teh insulation layers and the dry or wet   suit.
>The effect is similar, but not the same.  It is like measuring apples   and
>oranges.
>
>John LeBlanc

You are technically correct, but then what do you call the thermal effect   of wind on a wet drysuit? At eight degrees F. with a strong wind blowing,   the surface of a wet drysuit would be much colder in the air than in the   water -- at least, until the moisture froze.

Chuck Holst



Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 16:40:36 -0600
From: John Somers 
Subject: [Paddlewise] windchill

>>Windchill is the calculated effect the wind has on wet skin, not on
clothed, dry suited skin.  Although the wind does have an effect on the
amount of heat removed from your body through teh insulation layers and the
dry or wet   suit.
>>The effect is similar, but not the same.  It is like measuring apples   and
>>oranges.
>>
>>John LeBlanc

>You are technically correct, but then what do you call the thermal effect
 of wind on a wet drysuit? At eight degrees F. with a strong wind blowing,
 the surface of a wet drysuit would be much colder in the air than in the
water -- at least, until the
>
>Chuck Holst
>

Chuck, I don't mean to be nitpicking on details, but it's probably helpful
if we have a full discussion of windchill.  If I understand them accurately
I think technically your statement is correct and so is John LeBlanc's.
  At air temperature of 8 deg. F the surface temperature of an wet drysuit,
exposed to the air, will be very close to 8 deg. F, whether the wind speed
is 10 or 25 mph.  However the RATE of heat loss will be much higher in the
25-mph wind. In any case the surface temp won't go below the air temp. The
phenomenon of heat being whisked away faster and faster as the wind speed
goes up is termed windchill.
  And that, as we all know, increases the hazard of hypothermia, whether
it's over exposed skin or over protected and insulated skin.  Our
exothermic (heat-generating) bodies can produce heat only up to a limited
rate.  If the rate of heat loss exceeds the heat generation rate then body
temperature begins to drop, first in the extremities, feet, hands, then
legs, arms, then progressively in the brain and body core.
	Insulation protects us by reducing the rate of heat loss, but does not
eliminate that heat loss.  On the other hand, fire, sunshine, hot showers,
hot air and hot drinks have the effect of actually adding heat to our bodies.
	I suppose we could capitalize Windchill when it refers to the effect of
wind over skin and use lower case windchill for other cases, over drysuits
etc., the underlying physics is the same in principle.

	Now most of us also know that we can protect ourselves from windchill by
standing out of the wind.  But it has been observed even more effective to
stand downwind from some Paddlewisers.  While hypERthermia is unlikely, one
should be a bit careful here, as the situation may become unpleasant,
depending on which end of the Paddlewiser's body the hot air is coming
from.  :~)
	Cheers,
	John Somers



Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:51:29 +0000
From: "Ari Saarto" 
Subject: [Paddlewise] Weather, interesting book and receipes...

Hello you dear Paddlewisenheimers again - and happy New  Year!

Spent five weeks working in UK and after checking mail last week found out that 
there has been some really interesting threads going - surely sorry to have 
missed them...

First, a comment about the weather topic, even if I might be flogging a dead
horse: the National Broadcasting Company here gives the sea weather forecast
five times per day, beginning at 5.50 am. Forecast includes detailed list of
local reports from stations and lighthouses along the Finnish coastline -
unfortunately the reports are about an hour old. Checking them frequently,
making personal observations - and having the possibility to order local
forecasts and reports as text messages to your mobile phone (or to make a quick
call directly to meteorologists) gives a fairly good impression about what is
going on (the networks are really impressive here and practically covering the
whole coast). Getting the big picture can be really interesting fun, as Barbara
and Dave to my opinion were telling - and following it gives one more respect
towards the mother nature. We need it if we are seriously planning to go out
there.

Now, I did find a most entertaining and informative book about Thule (NW
Greenland), its people and history from a second-hand bookshop in Newcastle.
Unfortunately, it is not really about  kayaking, but it gives a really living
and colourful picture about living in Greenland in the fifties and the changes
which the U.S. air base brought to the whole culture of  Thule (500 inhabitants
around 50s if I recall correctly). The French writer, then a geologist, stayed
there the winter of 1950-51 and has returned few times ever since. Part of his
trip was an expedition of 1000 miles to Inglefield Land, Washington Land and to
Ellesmere Island using dog sledges. As a scientist, Malaurie gives detailed
information and observes everything with warm curiosity most of the time, as
staying also reasonably modest.

Malaurie gives also detailed information about food. There are some receipes, 
as for an example rotting 100 to 250 guillemots inside seal skins for months 
and eating it raw might interest especially dear old Dr. Inverbon, who is as we 
all know, a highly advanced eskimologist and gourmet...

Published in the 80s I suppose it can be out of print, but it could be found
from some libraries, I hope: "The Last Kings of Thule" by Jean Malaurie,
Jonathan Cape Ltd. London1982 (ISBN 0-224-02028-5). 

If anyone is familiar with the book and willing to exchange comments about it,
please, dont hesitate to mail me directly!

Cheers,

Ari Saarto

"Home of the Traditional & Famous Scandinavian Skinny-dipping [TM]"
Finland - Europe
GSM +358 - 50 - 526 5892
fax. +358 - 3 - 828 2815



Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:52:38 -0600
From: wanewman
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] New Year's Paddle

It requires proper attire rather than nerve to take the plunge.  I admit that I
have never jumped in the water when it was 8 degrees above, but I have swam in
my drysuit for fun on several winter paddles when it was in the 20s and 30s.
Our club web page has a photo of me swimming with my paddle on last years New
Years day event with the caption "Where is my boat?".  To respond to this clear
attempt at slander - for the record I must state that it was not the result of a
capsize, but instead I was paddling about the Mississippi doing crawl and back
stroke with my paddle for fun.  The year before that we had the imfamous battle
of the berg.  When a small ice chunk drifted by one of club members swam out and
climbed on top, and soon it was king of the berg time - at least until they
discovered that the little chuck of ice had a safe capacity of less than three
kayakers, and it promptly flipped over!

A few suggestions on dressing for very cold water.  Protecting your head, your
hands, and your feet are the biggest challenges.  I have a Kokatat Gortex
drysuit with the built in latex booties.  For years I just used ankle gaskets
and dive boots, but once you try warm dry socks under drysuit booties with
neoprene dive boots over top you will never go back to ankel gaskets and wet
cold feet!  For my head I prefer a Gortex and fleece Elmer Fudd style hat that
wraps tight around my chin.  Even when I roll it stays surprisingly dry and I
find it warmer and much more comfortable than a neoprene dive hood.  Obviously
in rough water or during a prolonged swim it likely would get too wet to be warm
so I have a dive hood in my PFD pocket as a backup.  I have yet to find a pair
of gloves that keeps my hands warm while giving me acceptable paddle feel.  For
this reason I prefer to use Pogies and a wood paddle to keep my hands toasty
warm.  The Pogies ice on to the paddle but I have nothing between my fingers and
a nice warm paddle shaft (fiberglass or graphite shafts are colder, and plastic
covered aluminum shafts are really icy cold!).

When swimming I keep my hands in my pogies and swim with my paddle and try to
keep my head high and dry if possible.  I the event of a real capsize the
biggest problem would be quickly using my bare hands to do any operations that
required dexterity and then warming them again in the Pogies.  I always use a
paddle leash so I can keep in contact with my boat even if both hands are in my
Pogies and on my paddle.  The one big advantage to neoprene gloves is that you
may be able to keep your hands protected while fiddling with gear.
Unfortunately most gloves don't allow for much dexterity so your gear needs to
be set up so you can work it easily with hand while wearing these despicable
Monster Paws.  Finding and pulling the grab loop on your spray skirt can be hard
to do with gloves also (see previous paddlewise postings on putting a wiffle
golf ball on the loop etc.)  What ever system you use I recomend trying a
capsize under controlled conditions and doing a self rescue in winter conditions
(Make sure you have a warm car or better still a nice Sauna waiting in case your
clothes, and gear are not up to the task!)



Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:12:43 -0800
From: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] New Year's Paddle

wanewman wrote:

> this reason I prefer to use Pogies and a wood paddle to keep my hands toasty
> warm.  The Pogies ice on to the paddle but I have nothing between my fingers and
> a nice warm paddle shaft (fiberglass or graphite shafts are colder, and plastic
> covered aluminum shafts are really icy cold!).

I earlier reproduced a sidebar from a back issue of my newsletter
concerning how Gail Ferris used a hoe and flexible plastic sheet kid's
sled to cope with ice situations.  In the main story was a mention of
something else she did to make paddling more comfortable.  She shoved
insulation into the shaft of her fiberglass paddle (I think she had
either a San Juan or Camano from Werner).  She claimed that this kept
the shaft from feeling cold against her hands.  Thinking back, I believe
you would to first have to remove the snap button temporarily to get
insulation past it.  This, of course, would only work with a breakapart
paddle.  I forgot what she used for insulation but anything that would
not absorb water and could stay in place should work.

As for the issue of using pogies and risking the problem of having bare
hands during a rescue (for attaching sprayskirt, etc.), there are some
real light flexible neoprene gloves on the market.  In and of themselves
they would not really give you enough warmth when paddling in cold
weather but used in conjunction with pogies they would give you the best
of both worlds: warmth and comfort while paddling: a modicum of hand
warmth for effecting rescue tasks.  The kind I mean is generally found
in the fishing tackle section of sports shops.  Cost around $20.  Buy
them on the large size for your hand to assure lots of flex.  Depending
on amount of use, they should last several seasons.  They beat the heavy
neoprene gloves found in paddle shops which need to be pre-curved and
all that to have any amount of comfort and minimal hand restriction.

ralph diaz
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:24:01 -0500
From: Michael Daly 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] New Year's Paddle

rdiaz@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> As for the issue of using pogies and risking the problem of having bare
> hands during a rescue (for attaching sprayskirt, etc.), there are some
> real light flexible neoprene gloves on the market.  In and of themselves
> they would not really give you enough warmth when paddling in cold
> weather but used in conjunction with pogies they would give you the best
> of both worlds: warmth and comfort while paddling: a modicum of hand
> warmth for effecting rescue tasks.

Anyone try the Seal Skinz in this manner?  I've heard good and bad
things about them.  I've been wandering about how good they'd
be (compared to neoprene) once flooded.   I guess one advantage
over the neoprene is a bit of breathability.

Mike



Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:15:41 -0600
From: (Chuck Holst)
Subject: [Paddlewise] FW: Weather, interesting bo

>>
Published in the 80s I suppose it can be out of print, but it could be
found from some libraries, I hope: "The Last Kings of Thule" by Jean
Malaurie, Jonathan Cape Ltd. London 1982 (ISBN 0-224-02028-5).

If anyone is familiar with the book and willing to exchange comments
about it, please, dont hesitate to mail me directly!

Cheers,

Ari Saarto
>>

**************************************************************************  *

I have the book, but haven't gotten far enough into it to discuss it.

Another interesting book by another Frenchman is "Kabloona" by Gontran
de Poncins, which has been reprinted in English by Gray Wolf Press, St.
Paul, Minnesota. It is a personal account of a year the author spent   among
Inuit in northern Canada in 1939. It is fascinating to watch him change
from being initially baffled and disgusted by the Inuit to adopting much
of their lifestyle and behavior. I recommend it.

Chuck Holst