From: Kenneth Cooperstein 
Subject: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 19:55:18 -0500

Paddling in 35 degree air on 40 degree water, what paddling glove will
give the best mix of comfort and feel:

1) 2 mm neoprene (like Glacier Gloves, $30)

2) 3 mm neoprene (like Thunderwear, $30)

3) paint stripping gloves over fleece liners (like Home Depot, 79
cents).

My paddle is an unfeathered Werner Little Dipper.  I intend to also use
the gloves while canoeing and frostbiting (sailing) under similar
conditions, so pogies are not the answer.

Ken Cooperstein



From: Barbdoerr
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:04:25 EST

Paddling in 35 degree air on 40 degree water, what paddling glove will
give the best mix of comfort and feel:

Try old fashion dishwashing gloves over your fleece  ones.  It is a sailor
thing, but works for kayaking too.  Or try poggies.

Barb



From: wayne steffens 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 22:28:03 -0600

Or, you can use the Don Starkell Tried-And-True-Arctic-Breadbag-method. ;-)

Wayne

I'm a mean machine and nothing can stop me. I'm a mean machine and nothing
can stop me.



From: Dan Hagen 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 22:53:42 -0800

Kenneth Cooperstein wrote:
> 
> Paddling in 35 degree air on 40 degree water, what paddling glove will
> give the best mix of comfort and feel ...SNIP...

I have tried various types of paddling gloves.  My favorite pair by far
is a pair of Glacier Gloves (I forget which model--they make several)
that has strongly pre-curved fingers (this makes a huge difference) and
raw neoprene on the outside (i.e., they do not have a nylon laminate on
the outside).  The raw neoprene grips extremely well and does not seem
to have the problem of evaporative cooling that nylon covered gloves can
have--the raw neoprene does not absorb any water.  I find that these
gloves do not cause fatigue and provide suprisingly good paddle feel.
The gloves are also waterproof (they don't leak at the seems). These
gloves have really been a pleasant surprise. As always, YMMV.
  
I haven't yet tried the rubber paint stripper gloves-over-fleece idea,
but it seems like a really good idea, especially since at the end of the
day the fleece liners would dry out out easily (should they become damp
from sweat), whereas neoprene gloves take a long time to dry when the
inside becomes damp.  I think that I'll give it a try.

Dan Hagen
Bellingham, Washington



From: Richard Culpeper 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 07:24:44 -0500

I have found that raw neoprene gives me the best connection with my
paddle.  If I use gloves with an outer layer of nylon, they slip too
much.  (Of course the raw neoprene ones do not last as long).

For folks who are into the surf or ww, you might watch out for this.
For general paddling it is not that big of a deal.

As far as thickness goes, I prefer thin ones even in crunchy water, for
they allow me more movement.  I realize, though, that folks with poorer
circulation prefer thicker ones.

Cheers,
Richard Culpeper



From: CHUCK@multitech.com (Chuck Holst)
Subject: [Paddlewise] FW: Winter gloves for sea k
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:22:09 -0600


I once paddled with a 2 mm Neoprene glove (a Deep See) on
one hand and a paint stripping glove over a fleece liner on the
other in conditions like these. Initially, the gloves were equally
comfortable, but as the outside of the Neoprene glove became
wet from paddle drips (I use a Greenland paddle), wind chill
made that hand colder than the other. So I prefer the last of
your three choices, though I also keep a pair of Neoprene
gloves in the kayak as a backup.

Neoprene gloves with a smooth, as opposed to a fabric, outer
surface might be warmer than the ones I tried.

Chuck Holst  



From: Rich Kulawiec 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 08:40:23 -0500

> Paddling in 35 degree air on 40 degree water, what paddling glove will
> give the best mix of comfort and feel ...

I have tried various gloves and can't stand any of 'em; I like feeling
the paddle with my hands and think that I get a better grip that way.

Soooooo, when it's really cold, I use pogies.  If you haven't seen these,
they're more-or-less mittens that go around the shaft of the paddle and
close with velcro; you then just put your hands in them and they're
nicely cocooned in there with the shaft.  They come in various models,
including ones with fleece insulation and sunlight-absorbing coatings.

The good part is that it's really easy to pull your hands out and do
things with your unencumbered fingers.  The bad part is that getting
the second pogie on when your other hand is already inside the first
one requires creative use of your teeth.

---Rsk



From: rdiaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:35:38 -0800

I find fleece lined pogies to be the best in comfort overall.  But there
are problems with this.

--When it is real cold out, the shaft of the paddle feels cold against
the bare hand when first paddling for the first few minutes.  I know of
someone, Gail Ferris, who has done a lot of Arctic paddling who stuffs
foam in her paddles to avoid just such cold conduction.

--If you do fall in the water, you have bare hands to deal with
self-rescue, getting sprayskirt back on.  I can, probably because of my
hot Latin blood, handle several minutes of cold water immersion and
exposure on my hands and still tie a knot.  But I don't rely on this in
real cold conditions and wear a lighter pair of neoprene gloves under
the pogies.

The key with any neoprene gloves is that they should be flexible enough
to allow you to pick up a quarter off of a table.  If not, then they
won't be up to dealing with a self rescue.  Go with a lighter, less
stiff pair if you can't do the quarter trick.  Even lighter stuff will
give you sufficient protection.

ralph diaz

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069;
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From: patrick 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: 05 Feb 98 10:06:37 +0000

Dan Hagen wrote:

>I have tried various types of paddling gloves.  My favorite pair by far
>is a pair of Glacier Gloves (I forget which model--they make several)
>that has strongly pre-curved fingers (this makes a huge difference) and
>raw neoprene on the outside (i.e., they do not have a nylon laminate on
>the outside).  

Shaped neoprene is great, just make sure that they are going to be
comfortable when wearing for a long time. I have a pair of neoprenes that are
fairly stiff (NRS I believe), and they are actually a bit too stiff for me,
my fingers get cramped after extended use. A friend of mine has a pair
that are shaped, but not as stiff and I find them much for comfortable.

Also, don't forget the best part about shaped neo gloves - Mexican style
wrestling grapples!

On a last note. Could everyone *please* stop cross-posting to Wavelength
and Paddlewise. Some of us really don't have time to delete duplicates all
day long. I was out for a few days and came back to over 700 messages,
primarily from Wavelength.

-Patrick



From: Chris Hardenbrook
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:16:42 -0800

Hi, Ken --
Certainly the thicker neoprene glove will be warmer, but sacrifice some *feel*
for the paddle. I doubt a 2mm neoprene glove will be sufficient for 35F when
wet and in any wind (especially when frostbiting).  Again, if your frostbiting
activities have you clutching rough sheets you will want to be sure the palms
have a coating to prevent them from wearing out too soon.
The Paint stripping gloves over fleece liners sound like maybe not enough
warmth, but for 79 cents, give it a try and give us a report.
                         >///:>Chris Hardenbrook<:\\\<
                           Sunny Southern California



From: K. Whilden
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:15:56 -0800 (PST)

I also like pogies, since I require that my fingers are unencumbered for a
different reason than the feel of the paddle. I always wear glasses, and
have you ever tried to spit on the finger of your neoprene glove and then
wipe it on your lens? It doesn't work, but I find that the bare finger
method provides the cheapest and most effective anti-fog available.

 On another note,
Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Rich Kulawiec wrote:

> The good part is that it's really easy to pull your hands out and do
> things with your unencumbered fingers.  The bad part is that getting
> the second pogie on when your other hand is already inside the first
> one requires creative use of your teeth.

For this reason, I prefer to use stiff neoprene pogies made by Snapdragon
in Seattle. These are quite easy to insert that last hand without any
dental gymnastics whatsoever.

Kevin 
/--------------------------------------------\ /---------------------------\
|Something there is that doesn't love a wall  |       Kevin Whilden        |
|That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it  |                            |
|And spills the upper boulders in the sun     | Dept. of Geologic Science  |
|And makes gaps that even two can pass abreast| University of Washington   |
|			-- Robert Frost	      |(206)543-1975(w) 632-5140(h)|
\--------------------------------------------/ \---------------------------/



Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:50:19 -0800
From: Chris Hardenbrook
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:50:19 -0800

Interesting to hear people experiencing "waterlogged" neoprene gloves.
Neoprene is closed cell stuff and therefore impossible to saturate.  The
surface may become wet and even retain water in exposed cells of the
material, but it can not (as I understand it) go deeper. That is why
neoprene is used for such things as scuba suits.

Granted there is a variety of grades of neoprene, and you may encounter
*cheap* stuff that falls apart more readily than a high quality neoprene
(very stuff stuff, actually).

Here's an idea: How about neoprene gloves that are slightly large over
capilene-style liners?

                      >///:>Chris Hardenbrook<:\\\<
                 Increasingly Cloudy Southern California



From: Dan Hagen
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 10:22:24 -0800

Chris Hardenbrook wrote:

> Here's an idea: How about neoprene gloves that are slightly large over
> capilene-style liners?

I tried this once--it worked so poorly (poor paddle feel; generally
uncomfortable) that I took them off after about 15 minutes of paddling. 
Maybe I had the wrong combo, but it was so bad that I was not tempted to
experiment with other combinations of this type.  I would think that the
thin rubber gloves over thin fleece liners would work much better--I'll
soon find out. 

Dan Hagen
Bellingham, Washington



From: Michael Edelman 
Subject: [Paddlewise] Pogies, mitts, etc
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:33:13 -0500 (EST)

I have a couple pair of neoprene gloves sold for kayaking I bought at REI
and a local store that combine neoprene and other fabrics, and both of
them leak enough cold water so as to be pretty worthless even in
moderately cold weather. They're okay in calm water, but any kind of spray
quickly waterlogs them.

I also have a pair of solid neoprene gloves I bought for ice fishing that
are better, but they seem to abrade too easily, and leave flakes of
neoprene. Maybe they're low quality? 

I'm going to try the suggested rubberized gloves & pile liners; sounds
like a very workable solution. I have coated work gloves of the sort sold
for handling chemicals that are roomy, flexible and cheap.

--mike 

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Michael Edelman      
 Wayne State University                 voice: (313) 577-0742
 Computing & Information Technology     fax:   (313) 577-8787
 Academic Computing & Support Services 
 Detroit MI 48070              http://www.pass.wayne.edu/~mje 
              



From: "Bob Denton" 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:01:27 -5


> Interesting to hear people experiencing "waterlogged" neoprene gloves.
> Neoprene is closed cell stuff and therefore impossible to saturate.  The
> surface may become wet and even retain water in exposed cells of the
> material, but it can not (as I understand it) go deeper. That is why
> neoprene is used for such things as scuba suits.

Actually, neoprene will eventually absorb some moisture, although I 
wouldn't use the word saturate. In scuba diving the pressure crushes 
the material to a fraction of it's orginal size and the re-expansion 
process seems to allow some moisture to penetrate. The same may be 
the case where wet neoprene is compresses in seats, booties and maybe 
gloves.


> Granted there is a variety of grades of neoprene, and you may encounter
> *cheap* stuff that falls apart more readily than a high quality neoprene
> (very stuff stuff, actually).

The best neoprene (for diving) has a high ratio of neoprene to 
bubbles. The cheaper grades use less neoprene and more N2 which makes 
it more flexible, lighter and less durable.

 
Bob Denton
Vice President 
Undersea Breathing Systems
http://www.dnax.com



From: "Geo. Bergeron, Oswego Heritage Council" 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:36:42 -0800 (PST)


        "Hot Shot" 3 mil neoprene fishing gloves for steelheading: $9.99
most days at Wal-Mart. They have a textured surface made for gripping round
stuff like fishing rods --or paddles. And the newer models have a Velcro
strap for cinching up around the end of your dry top sleeves. What's nice is
that they keep your hands warm even when they're soaking wet. They're NOT,
however, "dry gloves." The seams let water through, although it's not a
torrent. 

        I thought they were fat and stiff feeling when I first tried them,
now I like the extra padding on the paddle grip. 

        Geo. 



From: Mark Zen
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:17:31 -0700 (MST)

On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Kenneth Cooperstein wrote:


my "thunderwear" neoprene gloves have a leather palm, which gets wet, then
stays cold. they are the pits. [and were $30 gloves]  my newest pair are
cheap ones from wal-mart [$10!!] if the local water level ever rises,
maybe i'll get to try them [snowed out 2 weeks ago, water too low this
weekend]...

mark

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#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@~~~~~~~@~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@~~~~~~~~@~~~~~
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http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club]  
http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc  [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] 
http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark  [personal]
--



From: Tom 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Winter gloves for sea kayaking
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 20:11:21 -080

I got a pair of ice-fishing mittens for $10, with waterproof rubber
shell and fleece insert.  The rubber mittens were too short so I sewed
and glued neoprene cuffs on, which come half way up my forearms.  The
outside of the mittens is rough enough to keep a reaaly good grip. 
Keeps my hands dry and toasty, despite the Raynaulds, when I use a
single paddle and can't use pogies.  

Tom