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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 06:49:33 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt

PJ Rattenbury wrote:
 
> Hi All,   Can anyone offer any real-life comments on how these stack up? I
> believe they have been on the US market for some time now.  Comment from
> other Klepper owners would be particularly welcome, as  that is my
> application.  Re-entry and roll effectiveness is therefore not a factor,
> but  how do the skirts and zippers stand up in surf and big water, 

I don't know this particular skirt but Kleppers have had zippered
sprayskirts.  I don't know if they still do.  These were special-order
military ones that cost a bundle because they employed a waterproof
zipper.  I never saw a particular advantage in them since it is so easy
to pop a skirt and get at what you need.  The downside for the zippered
sprayskirt, in addition to cost, are/were: added weight (if you are
carrying a folding kayak every ounce adds to your burden); susceptible
to getting sand in the zippered teeth; maintenance of the zipper.

ralph




From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:48:51 EST
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt

Pouch currently has a zippered version spraydeck for the double cockpit 
(non-military, the Swedish commandos prefer the heavy duty three piece 
version: spray deck plus two spray skirts). Individual zippers run from the 
center of the front top edge of each funnel to about the knees of the 
paddler. The zippers are no more difficult to maintain in this application 
than when they are used in dry suits. The weight is close to the traditional 
side opening funnel version of the Pouch spray deck. I have not had this 
particular spray deck out in dumping surf, but since even the ratty old 
button version used to stand up quite well (after a few modifications), I 
would not have second thoughts about the strength of the zippers in this 
respect.

The upside to a center zippered spray deck / skirt is the ease of boarding 
and alighting from the boat. It also allows semi-permanent installation of 
the deck for improved surf security. Since you wear the "funnel" over the 
PFD, some people worry about taking on water. In my experience this is 
minimal.

I agree with Ralph that for some people the advantages of the center zippers 
are not necessarily worth the added cost of the expensive zippers. My 
personal preference would be for a spray deck with integral coamings that 
accept a good spray skirt, but that's from the point of view of use on salt 
water. For extended river trips the zipper version certainly has a place.

As to adding unnecessary weight: I don't like lugging boats, whether they be 
folded up or assembled, in any case. Why not just use a folding boat cart? 
Admittedly there are few with large enough wheels to make them fit for 
off-road trips, but they are not difficult to make yourself ... long winter 
nights are approaching fast :-).

Ralph C. Hoehn




Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:07:18 -0800
From: "Fred T, CA Kayaker"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt - Now Over or Under PFD

At 11/14/2000 12:48 PM -0500, [Ralph C. Hoehn] wrote:

> Since you wear the "funnel" over the PFD, some people worry about taking
> on water. In my experience this is minimal.

I hadn't thought of this in a while, but haven't seen it posted here.  What 
is the consensus or rule on is it best to wear your skirt tunnel under your 
PFD or over it?

Fred




From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:53:48 EST
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt - Now Over or Under PFD

Fred, lest I have opened myself up to misunderstandings: The set-up, to which 
I was referring, applied only to double folding boats with a long open 
cockpit. A special deck / cover can be stretched over this cockpit. These 
covers come in two basic varieties.

1 - A deck with integral funnels (sometimes merely with drawstrings around 
the top; sometimes side-opening, closed with snap buttons; sometimes equipped 
with front (or side) zippers).

2 - A deck with integral hoops / coaming rings, to which you can attach 
"normal" spray skirts.

In both cases the deck is more or less permanentely attached to the cockpit 
coaming of the boat, which necessitates some kind of opening arrangement for 
the funnels (or separate spray skirts) to allow the paddler to get in and 
out. Depending on the permanence of the deck to cockpit coaming, loading and 
unloading of gear may also need to be made through these funnels.

You would not want to wear integral funnels under your PFD in case you need 
to wet exit (yes, it happens "even" with double folding kayaks). The 
likelihood of remaining attached when you would no longer want to be is too 
great. Remember that your PFD need to be relatively tight to be fully 
effective. Of course, if you use a set-up with detachable individual spray 
skirts you're back to your normal wisdom and wear it under your PFD, 
preferably cinched tight or rolled into your dry top/suit to provide a near 
perfect seal.

I have in the past been in situations where I wore my funnel over the PFD, 
but wore a rain jacket over that. While the latter might have impaired my 
mobility, had I been forced into the water, I believe that I would have been 
able to get out of the boat with no problems at least. Also, having some air 
between my body and the rain jacket made for a comparatively comfortable 
paddling climate :-).

I hope that I made this point clearer now.

By the way, the original side opening Pouch spray deck version allowed the 
paddlers to unbutton completely the left side on both funnels. That in turn 
allowed one to roll up the amidships section of the deck and be left with an 
open cockpit once again bar the short pieces forward of the bow position and 
aft od the stern paddler. In case of rain or cold (as evening approached) or 
of excessive sun, the deck could be closed up again in a snap so to speak. 
When Pouch dropped this version in favor of something more substantial than 
the buttons, old time fans almost stormed the barricades in protest :-). 
There is a serious after sales market offering various deck and skirt 
arrangements for Pouch and Klepper doubles in Germany.

Best regards,
Ralph C. Hoehn




Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:56:24 -0500
From: John Fereira
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt - Now Over or Under PFD

At 12:07 PM 11/14/00 -0800, Fred T, CA Kayaker wrote:

> I hadn't thought of this in a while, but haven't seen it posted here.  What 
> is the consensus or rule on is it best to wear your skirt tunnel under your 
> PFD or over it?

Under it.  I wouldn't even consider doing it any other way.  




From: Melissa Reese
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 13:29:14 -0800
Subject: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD

Though I've seen some people wear their tunnels over their PFDs 
(usually the suspender type nylon tunnel - with either neoprene or 
nylon deck), I've never figured out why they would do such a thing.

I always wear first my insulating layer(s), then the 
sprayskirt/tunnel, then drytop or paddling jacket, then PFD on top of 
everything.  Or - when wearing a full drysuit - I still wear the PFD 
*over* the sprayskirt/tunnel.

Frankly, wearing the skirt tunnel over a PFD makes no real sense to 
me at all.  I can think of many reasons to wear the tunnel under the 
drytop, PFD, etc.  Since using a sprayskirt has much to do with 
keeping water out of the boat, wearing a tunnel on the outside seems 
particularly counter-intuitive and awkward. 

I would be interested to hear an explanation of why anyone would do 
otherwise.

Melissa




From: "Whyte, David"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:31:54 +1100

I would agree with Melissa, I can't see any benefit in wearing your tunnel
over the PFD plus I imagine it would let water into the cockpit when rolling
or in heavy surf. Mine is so tight that there is no way I could put it over
my PFD.

David




Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:19:28 +1100
From: PJ Rattenbury
Subject: [Paddlewise] Zippered Skirts

	Thankyou for your responses, paddlewisers.  There is a certain
subjectivity about zippered skirts it seems.  I already use one, but it is
a nylon affair and difficult to make watertight, which prompts me to have a
Brooks skirt made up. Hang the expense. 
	I do like the ease of access which a centre zip provides as I carry
everything, including water bottle, below deck.  Sure it is easy to pop an
unzippered skirt, but I believe the zip does not compromise the integrity
of the skirt, that is, it can be quickly zipped open and shut. 
	If I had to pop my skirt at sea, it would be a two-handed recovery
operation and quite frankly not something I would like to do in big water
unless it was vital. 
	I have found another advantage in zippered skirts in my environment, which
often means launching off beaches in surf.  I can quickly hop in to the
boat, with the skirt already fitted , zip up, and get paddling  while
'unzippered' ! folk are still trying to fit their skirt. 
	Another advantage, again related to my environment, is that a zippered
skirt enables you to 'open' up the boat in hot conditions.  It can be nice
to have a bit of breeze through the cockpit.
	I recall a PaddleWise thread about a year ago when there was some query
about the quality of Brooks skirts.  I presume they have lifted their game?
	Cheers, Peter Rattenbury




Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:39:10 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD

Melissa Reese wrote:

> Frankly, wearing the skirt tunnel over a PFD makes no real sense to
> me at all.  I can think of many reasons to wear the tunnel under the
> drytop, PFD, etc.  Since using a sprayskirt has much to do with
> keeping water out of the boat, wearing a tunnel on the outside seems
> particularly counter-intuitive and awkward.
> 
> I would be interested to hear an explanation of why anyone would do
> otherwise.

Years ago, Feathercraft's K-1 had an integral sprayskirt that was sewn
into the deck.  You really had to wear it outside your PFD otherwise you
risked getting entrapped.  It had a velcro closure that was meant to
help you wet exit.  It always seemed scary to me.

Ralph Hoehn mentioned the spraydecks on Pouches (and Kleppers) which are
one large piece covering the big opening of a double (and singles too).
They open(ed) on one side with velcro or snaps.  You definitely would
not want THAT under your PFD.

Another reason perhaps for wearing a sprayskirt outside the PFD might be
in the folding kayaks I mentioned above even when the splash covering
consists of a spray deck with two holes to which you attach sprayskirts
(theirs or from the aftermarket).  The decks are quite high.  A shorter
individual might find that the sprayskirt forces the PFD up above
his/her nose.  So for comfort the skirt might be best worn outside the
PFD to prevent this ride-up.

ralph diaz




Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:46:37 -0800
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Zippered Skirts

PJ Rattenbury wrote:
 
>         Thankyou for your responses, paddlewisers.  There is a certain
> subjectivity about zippered skirts it seems.  I already use one, but it is
> a nylon affair and difficult to make watertight, which prompts me to have a
> Brooks skirt made up. Hang the expense. [snip]

>         I recall a PaddleWise thread about a year ago when there was some query
> about the quality of Brooks skirts.  I presume they have lifted their game?

Just bought a nylon tunnel/neo deck skirt from them.  Seems comparable to
Snapdragon, with some aspects of their design much better.  Mine is not
zippered, however.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR




From: Melissa Reese
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:31:27 -0800

To the two Ralphs:

I understand your points when speaking of the various folding boat 
spray deck arrangements - especially concerning the open cockpit 
doubles.  I should have made it clearer that I was thinking about 
non-folding boat arrangements - and even some of the more recent 
version folding boats (Feathercraft Khat, K-1, etc.) with their 
"modern" coamings and single cockpit openings.

I have however, seen people in "standard coaming" composite boats 
wearing their tunnels on the outside, and I still see this as 
peculiar - actually defeating the purpose of a potentially very 
secure skirt arrangement.  I was really wondering why some of these 
people in particular would wear their skirts in this way.

Melissa




Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:34:56 -0800
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD

Melissa Reese wrote:

[snip]
> Frankly, wearing the skirt tunnel over a PFD makes no real sense to
> me at all.  I can think of many reasons to wear the tunnel under the
> drytop, PFD, etc.  Since using a sprayskirt has much to do with
> keeping water out of the boat, wearing a tunnel on the outside seems
> particularly counter-intuitive and awkward.
> 
> I would be interested to hear an explanation of why anyone would do
> otherwise.

As a reformed tunnel-outside paddler, perhaps I can tell of my now-abandoned
evil ways:

The tunnel-outside crowd is seeking maximum ventilation, and is paddling in
waters where only a little slop on the deck is likely.

I quit a few years ago, and will not go back.  I agree tunnel inside is
better.  If conditions are so mellow I do not need a sprayskirt, I either leave
it off entirely or just loosen it from the coaming.  And, yeah, I know the
former can lead to problems if the water gets rough unexpectedly.  Gotta get my
thrills somehow!

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR




Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:54:02 -0800
From: "Fred T, CA Kayaker"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD

Melissa and the other posts.
An interesting arrangement on the folding boats.  For normal (if there is 
such a thing) kayaks I agree on the tunnel under the PFD, but have seen 
pictures of folks paddling (may have been Derek Hutchinson or other British 
kayaker) with it over their PFD and the last time that I went to purchase a 
new skirt there was one make (British I think) with a giant pocket on the 
inside front of the tunnel.  I could see no way of putting anything of much 
size into, let alone filling it up and then putting under my PFD.  When I 
asked the owner of the shop she commented that it was intended to be worn 
over the PFD.
Interesting.  I look forward to others weighing in on the subject.

Fred




From: "Matt Broze"
Subject: RE:[Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:19:04 -0800

Maybe you have seen me, I often wear my spraydeck over the PFD. Sometimes I
do things "wrong" just to be cantankerous. I'm a much better skier than
kayaker. I started skiing when I was two and kayaking not until 29 or 30.
Two weeks after a hernia operation I went skiing again last winter. Needless
to say, I wasn't pounding through the moguls much that day. So I toured some
of the novice runs and kind of got into the swing of things, I tried to ski
like a novice gone out of control but at slow speeds. My skiing partner, a
ways behind, was in stitches but, some folks would try to help me out by
shouting directions to correct my mistakes. One woman kept telling me to
lean further forward so I kept leaning even further and further to the rear
until I was so far back my boots were in the air most of the time and I was
only skiing on my ski tails. I bought my skis and poles at Goodwill or a
garage sale and my 20+ year old boots are haywired together so my equipment
certainly didn't give me away (I don't have any new equipment). Much later I
ran into someone at a party who worked at the ski area and had seen this
run. While he correctly guessed that it was all a put-on on my part he
wasn't totally sure and his buddy was sure I was for real, just a complete
klutz.

Being cantankerous, is not however why I wear my spraydeck outside
sometimes, but I also will continue to do it that way no matter what others
think (at least until the ACA gets a law passed to take away my paddling
license if I don't tuck in my skirt). For me it is a situational thing. If
I'm punching out through surf, paddling in the rain and cold or in
potentially rough weather I put my spraydeck under my PFD for the shingle
effect and the better seal at the waist that it provides that way. Dave is
right about why a paddler in a non-folding kayak might put it outside
though, ventilation. The chimney effect your body heat creates helps keep
one cooled down some when paddling hard on a hot day in relatively calm
waters. I can put out a lot of heat and I want to dump it as fast as I can
without becoming unnecessarily salt covered (by using rotary cooling or
throwing water over myself). Unlike Dave, I almost never paddle without the
spraydeck on though. Even with the spraydeck wide open an Eskimo roll
doesn't flood the cockpit that bad and a roll with a completely open cockpit
would leave me having to pump out. I'm long waisted and like lower cockpits
so the PFD riding up under my arms isn't a problem but it is for many short
waisted folks. I like shoulder straps as they help keep the tube up and open
when I'm using it that way. I like the buckle below the zipper on many PFD's
too, for the same reason, I can unzip them but still have them on if I need
it. The big opening at the top of my spraydeck also often allows me to reach
things inside my cockpit (without a zipper or taking the skirt off) like the
water bottle behind the seat. I'm sure some of you look at "spraydeck
outside" as being a sign saying "unschooled novice" (much like I might view
someone who holds the paddle upside down or flips the power face around to
do a backstroke). Occasionally, I run into someone very experienced who just
likes the way the paddle feels when it is upside down though.
To each his own.

Matt Broze




From: [Joan Spinner]
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:16:48 EST
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD

> r. . . PFD and the last time that I went to purchase a  new skirt there was 
> one make (British I think) with a giant pocket on the  inside front of the 
> tunnel.  I could see no way of putting anything of much  size into, let alone 
> filling it up and then putting under my PFD.

My Snapdragon skirt has a big inside pocket. I carry a hood in it during the 
cold months, in case I need it. I can get to the pocket by pulling the tunnel 
down, below my PFD. I also keep the wax for my gloves in there to keep it 
warm enough to spread when I'm using the gloves that need the tacky wax in 
serisouly cold conditions.

Joan Spinner




Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:30:14 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD

Matt Broze wrote:
 
> Maybe you have seen me, I often wear my spraydeck over the PFD.
> Sometimes I do things "wrong" just to be cantankerous. 

Matt Broze cantankerous?  Perish the thought!  :-)

Actually this post heartens me to brave the scorn of know-it-all
paddlers and wear my sprayskirt over my PFD on warm days in relatively
calm situations as a way of keeping cooler.

Perhaps all PaddleWisers should wear their sprayskirts that way as an
identification sign to fellow subscribers.  Of course, real PaddleWise
paddlers are too expert to wear nylon skirts and there is no way they
can get their tight neoprene skirt tunnels over their PFDs.

ralph diaz




Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:13:08 -0500
From: Greg Stamer
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD

Earlier in this thread someone wrote about water funneling into the kayak
with the skirt worn over the PFD. As luck would have it, there is a
Greenland roll to handle just this task (you didn't think that 30+ rolls
were just for tricks did you ;^). Although the vast majority of Greenland
kayakers that I have met do not wear PFDs, they do wear a sealskin
sprayskirt for summer conditions that has a tall body tube, usually left
open at the top for ventilation. The preferred roll for a capsize with this
garment is to sweep from the stern to the bow in a low brace (Greenland
reverse roll). This roll is very popular in Greenland and is reputed to
allow the least amount of water to enter the kayak with an open skirt. I
would imagine that this would also work well for the
sprayskirt-over-the-PFD crowd. Note that although this roll is similar to a
Steyr, the Steyr is performed as a high brace.

Greg Stamer
Orlando, Florida




From: HTERVORT@...
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:09:06 EST
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Zippered Skirts / Over or Under

Somehow, my earlier reply (under "Zippered Skirts") seems to have been 
truncated and I feel the safety issue at hand is important enough to try 
again:

In a message dated 11/14/00 4:24:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, Peter Rattenbury
writes:

> I do like the ease of access which a centre zip provides as I carry
> everything, including water bottle, below deck.  Sure it is easy to pop an
> unzippered skirt, but I believe the zip does not compromise the integrity
> of the skirt, that is, it can be quickly zipped open and shut. . 
>
> I have found another advantage in zippered skirts in my environment, which
> often means launching off beaches in surf.  I can quickly hop in to the
> boat, with the skirt already fitted , zip up, and get paddling  while
> 'unzippered' ! folk are still trying to fit their skirt. 

The voices of both reason and experience prompt me to caution against these 
practices.  If you capsize with loose gear inside your cockpit, any object 
can wedge itself between your knees, legs or feet and the deck or seat and 
prevent you from getting out.  The harder you try, the harder the object 
wedges and holds you, partially out of the cockpit but unable to get out.  
Other gear can migrate beneath you and make the scenario even worse.  This is 
particularly serious if you capsize in the surf.

(snip and flip)
> If I had to pop my skirt at sea, it would be a two-handed recovery
> operation and quite frankly not something I would like to do in big
> water unless it was vital. 

I assume you would still remove the skirt from the coaming rather than try to 
open the tunnel.  Trying to wet exit by unzipping the tunnel would seem to 
make the exit, dumping of water and reentry all harder than if you pop the 
skirt.

> Another advantage, again related to my environment, is that a zippered
> skirt enables you to 'open' up the boat in hot conditions.  It can be nice
> to have a bit of breeze through the cockpit.

Or you can release the skirt -- in total, or front only, or back only.


Under-the-PFD in So Cal,

Harold

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