PaddleWise Topics PaddleWise Stories PaddleWise Photo Album

Who's Who on PaddleWise PaddleWise Links PaddleWise Home

Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 20:34:11 EST
From: DMon707
Subject: [Paddlewise] Sails

My partner and I have Feathercraft K-1's and we're considering using sails for
the Sea of Cortez this winter. On our Mulege to Loreto paddle last year, Nike
golf umbrellas were sweet, but they didn't last out the year. Our K-1's have
sail fixtures, I assume, for the feathercraft sail, about which I know
nothing. Ralph Diaz mentions BSD Batwings. Any K-1 sailors out there have any
experience, gossip, etc., about different sails? Weight and size are critical,
since flying the kayaks, gear and food down to Loreto is already a grunt.
Doug Montgomery
San Francisco



Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:53:56 -0800
From: rdiaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sails

Since my name has come up, I thought I would elaborate some.

The K-1 can and has been rigged by several individuals to use the Balogh
Batwing sail.  That is a sail rig able to point into or sail into the
wind.

The first was a fellow from Ontario who used just about the smallest
Batwing (I think 18 sq ft if my memory serves me well).  He took the
special fitting that Feathercraft will fit in the deck top bar for using
the Feathercraft Genoa sail and used it for the Balogh mast.  The sail
had a slight forward pitch due to the angle of the bow deck bar.  For
stability in sailing he counted on two things.  1) he had the boat full
of camping gear...he was sailing north in the Canadian Arctic and had
lots of it and 2) he used SeaWing sponsons.  This was a quick approach
to the task.  It used the detached blades of the 4-piece paddle as
leeboards. 

2) The second setup was by a fellow in Georgia who put in the full
Batwing rig, about 28 sq ft or bigger with the BOSS outriggers, large
standard leeboard, the works.  It required some welding and specially
engineered pieces to beef up the front frame as well as holes in the
deck to support the struts holding the outrigger bar.  He is an engineer
and designed this himself plus had the equipment and materials from his
job to make this custom job himself.

Both worked well.  The first fellow has since, I understand, moved
toward something like the second fellow's.  The second fellow recently
sold his K-1 and Batwing and basically gotten out of kayaking.  He
advertised it in my newsletter but I don't know if it sold through it or
via some other means.  These are the only two such upwind setups that I
am aware of for the K-1.  Both were fully written up in my newsletter
and I would be happy to fax the articles to any one who is interested.

Feathercraft is in the process, or already has, developed an upwind
sail.  I am not certain where it is at exactly.

The Genoa and kites and other such rigs will give you a nice boost if
you are going with the wind or on a broad reach.  Some setups can come
around to just about a beam reach but you need a leeboard to prevent
your boat from sliding across the water sideways when attempt that beam
reach. 

ralph diaz
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069;
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:36:37 -0700
From: Philip Wylie 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sails

For sailing info in general check out these fabulous guys at the
MAATSUYKER CANOE CLUB-  Sailing Rigs for Tasmanian Sea Kayaks


http://www.vision.net.au/~jennings/sail/sail.html

They have some great info available and you will want to visit their web page
and spend an hour enjoying there wonderful photo album. Great stuff!


Best Regards,

Philip Wylie





From: [Ralph Diaz]
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:38:21 -0800
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sail vs. paddle?

Jim Holman wrote:
 
> I've been starting to do some reading and research on folding kayaks. 
> I'm interested in the fact that it is possible to sail in one, but 
> I have a few basic questions:
> 
> 1)  How well do single-seaters sail compared to dual-seaters?

The two seaters, especially the ones with a single large cockpit, tend
to be better sailing vessels.  More room for dealing with the sheets,
several options on where to place the mast (forward or in mid-cockpit,
etc.  That is not to say that the singles are not suited for sailing. 
They are.

> 2)  Is it "fun" to sail a kayak, or a hassle, or difficult?

Depends on your attitude.  I think a person is either a sailor or a
paddler.  You don't find too many who bridge both worlds well.  Most of
the good sailors I know haven't the foggiest idea how to paddle except
for the few strokes needed to get away from a dock or pull into a boat
ramp.  Try asking one whether he feathers his paddle and you will get a
look of puzzlement that suggests they think you are asking about
sticking feathers in it.

It can be a hassle.  It does require a lot of concentration.  You are
thinking, wind direction, ruddering, tacking, amount of wind in sail,
etc.  I think it is relatively unsafe to be sailing a kayak in heavily
trafficked waters as it takes away too much attention from things going
on around you.
 
> 3)  How effective are the upwind sails vs. downwind only?

Well, depends on what direction you want to go.  A downwind sail is not
going to go into the wind.  If you mean, which is more efficient in
doing what they are supposed to do, the downwind ones are better going
downwind than the upwinds are going upwind.  There isn't enough momentum
in such a light vessel as a kayak to sail efficiently upwind.  It can be
done, but it is quite slow and requires such wide, frequent tacks, that
you are better off pulling out your paddle and paddling.  Or doing what
is called power paddling, which is basically sailing on upwind tacks
while also using your paddle to get more wind  into your sail.  But for
that you need a front passenger to do the paddling.
Upwind sails are best on a beam reach, i.e. perpendicular to the wind or
slightly pointing upwind 10 degrees from perpendicular.  Then they fly
like bats out of hell.

> 4)  When  all is said and done, are sails worth the cost?  If you have
> sails, would you buy them again?  If you don't have sails, do you wish
> you did?

Again it depends on your attitude and outlook.  Those who sail can't get
enough of them.  You often see people in double Kleppers, Folbots, etc.
adding another sail to their boats creating a schooner rig.  I have even
seen someone have a jib and two mainsails (of slightly different square
area).  It is addictive.  I don't like sailing BTW although I do hang
out around a lot with sailing kayakers and have been at every one of the
sailing conventions in North Carolina each fall run by Balogh Sail
Designs, the premier sail maker and designer for kayak sailing.  And I
believe that my folding kayak book is the only sea kayaking book that
really discusses sails plus gives fairly long description of sailing
tips regarding the 3 or 4 principal type of sail rigs.  There is a whole
chapter on how to sail these various rigs and sections of other chapters
in selecting sails.

> 5)  How much total cost do upwind or downwind sails add, all things considered?

Assuming you have a rudder, figure around US$1200-1400 for an upwind
sail that would include leeboard and outriggers (Balogh), around US$1100
for the Klepper S-4 rig (leeboards, no outriggers) and about US$300 to
$400 for downwind sails. You haven't asked about kite sails...that's
another story and issue. 
 
> Thanks in advance for any insights.  I know a couple of people with kayaks, but
> no one who sails in one.

Well, I don't sail as you can see from my responses.  I learned enough
about them to write about them and pass on information since sailing is
a big part of the appeal of folding kayaks.  But I rather be paddling.
:-)

ralph diaz
-- 




Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:48:10 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] sail rigs

Matt Broze wrote:
SNIPPED
> they we no faster than us. However, they soon resorted just using the jib
> and stowing all the rest. We would leave them far behind with the spinaker
> and have to wait for them again.

I am glad someone brought up sailing with the Klepper jib alone,
although it did not seem to work all that well for Matt's fellow kayak
sailors.  In my experience, and from what I know from other sources, jib
sailing can be a very effective sail even for beam reaching (90 degrees
to the direction of the wind) and works well on a broad reach (45
degrees or so off downwind) and straight downwind running.

I have not done much sailing, just enough to know how to write about it
with the help of good friends like Mark Balogh.  But I do recall my
first week of sailing in which going on a broad reach with a jib in
which my wife and I in a double Klepper were able to keep up with a
smallish Batwing on a double Klepper.  Other factors may have accounted
for this other than sail. Perhaps the expert sailor in the other boat
wasn't all that expert with this particular sail.  Also the other boat
had the group's leader in it who besides possessing a heavy ego also had
a disproportionately high amount of the groups gear, not that my wife
and I in our Klepper double were not carrying a load as well.

We knew next to nothing about sailing (I still don't; she knows a lot
more).  But we operated as an effective team.  She worked the jib sheet
(sheet is sailing parlance for the line controlling a sail) to
perfection with a subtle touch on keeping the jib filled with just the
right amount of wind.  And me?  I was controlling the rudder.  I figured
that the expert sailor in the other Klepper knew how to get the most out
of the wind.  All I had to do was to make certain that our boat was
always on a parallel line with his heading.  As he varied his heading, I
duplicated it like a monkey mimicing human gestures.

We went for several miles that way.  The leader never turned around all
that time convinced that he had pulled out well ahead of the group (In
his defense it was the last day of an 8 day trip and he may have been
tired of dealing with our motley group).  Meanwhile we were holding our
position about 100 feet behind him, a respectable distance for observing
his movements.  When he came close to the takeout beach and finally
turned around, the look of surprise to see us just behind him was
priceless.  It was "Where the hell did these non-sailing bozos come
from?"

Jib sailing a Klepper offers a lot of advantages.  Less setup time. 
Less complex.  Smaller package to take with you when travelling and to
stow away in your boat.  And less liable to tip over than the full
Klepper S-4 rig which has a soft pocket up high on the mast which can
flip you if a gust hits up there with you unawares (listen to Ralph talk
as if actually knows anything about this!:-))  I know that Gail Ferris
was very big on the idea of jib sailing in her northern trips.  She even
cut down the sail area of the jib because she was afraid too much area
might tip her single Klepper.

ralph diaz





Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:17:29 EDT
From: Paul Raymond
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayak Sail Patterns

[Evan_Dallas]:

> Anyone know where I might find a pattern for a make-it-yerself kayak sail?
> I'm only interested in the go-straight-ahead-only pocket-type sail (I'm
> not sure of the correct terminology here), as opposed to the windsurfer
> or sailboat style where you can actually go into the wind.

I bookmarked these links from a previous thread. Haven't gotten far enough
on the kayak I'm building to try them yet. The first two have sketches of
downward sails.

http://www.vision.net.au/~jennings/sail/sail.html

http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/mag/36/osdgl.html

http://www.tassie.net.au/~lford/sails.htm

Also try the Kayak Sailing mailing list at

http://www.shipwrecked.com/kayak-sail/

They have a links page also.

Good luck, Paul.

To subscribe to PaddleWise, send email to PaddleWise-request@paddlewise.net
To send email to members of PaddleWise, send email to PaddleWise@paddlewise.net
For questions or comments, please send email to owner@paddlewise.net