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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:10:12 -0700
From: [Ralph Diaz]
Subject: [Paddlewise] into the fray

My internet server, Netcom, was on the blink regarding email for the
last 24 hours or so.  And so, I didn't get the stream of discussion
regarding rolling, paddlefloats, et al until this morning in one lump
sum.  Very enlightening to see it all at once as it lets you step back
to see the forest not just the trees.

If I recall, I think this all started with the beginning of a discussion
of Lone Malden's death in Greenland that was narrated by her paddling
mate in the most recent issue of Sea Kayaker.  And perhaps we should
address that.

For my 2 cents, when I heard that she did not know how to roll and that
she regularly choose to paddle hundreds of yards away from her companion
in those waters, I was dumbfounded.  I don't roll, and that may make me
lesser of a paddler than some of you (I say "some" because a good 80% of
sea kayakers do not know how to roll at all or certainly not in any
reliable way), but I would never have chosen to do the type of paddling
that she did, where she did, in her kind of kayak without something
approaching a bombproof roll.  Out of her boat, in the waters she
regularly paddled, self-rescue would always be dicey at best.

I made a choice quite awhile ago to get into a class of boat which do
not roll easily nor do they need to...folding kayaks.  That is a
generalization about them as a breed.  Some of them can be rolled
readily...the Feathercraft Khatsalano comes to mind (and so can the
K-Light and K-1).  But the others cannot be reliably rolled.  Klepper
singles have been rolled but more of a circus act in a pool or off of a
calm beach, i.e. not a reliable self-rescue technique in open water.

Folding kayaks, such as Kleppers, have quite reliably been paddled in
rough conditions all over the world without capsizing.  Where they have
tipped over generally has been when under sail, which is a tricky thing
under certain conditions such as near headlands, where wind gusts catch
the top of the Klepper gaff-rigged S-4 sail and tip the boat.  It does
take a lot to capsize one while paddling.  It happens rarely.  The only
time a folding kayak has gone over on me while paddling was when I got
caught in a strainer and the rushing water caught the upstream side of
my deck and flipped me (in that situation, a strainer, a roll would not
have worked in any kayak).  Oh, I saw one go over on the PBS Trailwise
show of the round Manhattan circumnavigation.  The host was in a single
Klepper and was in the whirlpools that temporarily form around Hell Gate
at certain tidal cycle times.  His paddle got caught by the swirly water
and he tried to hang on to it figuring his big muscles would win out
(score: water dynamics 1, big muscles zero).

If I had stayed with hardshells, which was my intention when I started
paddling, I would have worked my darnest to get a reliable roll and to
practice it regularly, which is the only sensible thing to do in certain
kinds of boats.  Once I went to a kind of boat that rolling was not much
of a self-rescue option, the incentive to learn was gone.  I have
dabbled at it every half dozen years but never really pushed it.  It
ain't witchcraft or voodoo, it can be learned.  And it is fun as some
people have pointed out.

Let's see if I can summarize regarding hardshells.  I have no stake in
this one way or another as I don't paddle them, so no particular axe to
grind on the roll vs. other rescue techniques:

1.  If your intention is to go out into the ocean in a hardshell and
play in surf, you must develop a good roll in the process.  To do
anything less is foolhardy.

What Lone did in Greenland was unwise considering the conditions she
would be in fairly constantly.  She had tons of rescue and safety gear
such as EPIRB, VHF radio, flares, paddlefloat, etc. but not the internal
thing she really needed to save herself, i.e. an ability to stay in her
boat and either roll it up or hang in there in a storm scull until she
could get her wits about her or into better waters.  And, again, she was
paddling so far away from her paddlemate that he could not do a thing
for her, albeit it seems he probably didn't know much about assisted
rescues in rough conditions either, or I could be wrong.

2.  Whatever you do regarding rolling, do get a reentry and roll down
pat, especially if your ordinary roll is not absolutely reliable.  Help
yourself along by having either a rigid foam float or a partially
inflated one ready.  And it is absolutely best that you do so in a way
that you connect your skirt before rolling up in order to keep water
out.
When I was looking into hardshells and the renter and roll technique
back then it was always taught and practiced in this way. i.e. attach
skirt under water.  I was fairly shocked to see in Sea Kayaker a year or
two ago that Nigel Foster was showing it without that step, which will
definitely scoop up a cockpit full of water.  If you are using this
rescue method, it might as well be "in for a penny, in for a sixpence."

3.  Paddlefloats and pumps are only as good as the paddler and his/her
practice with them.  Sounds like a cliche, but I can't begin to count
the number of paddlers of hardshells that I have run across who
dutifully carry them and have never practiced using them at all.  I
guess they think, like in having a jack and spare tire in your car
trunk, you can just deal with them when the emergency comes and you can
read the owner's manual etc.  I know this is a hard point to argue
especially in this illustrious company of Paddlewise, which is already a
semi-select group because it is at least interested in such subjects as
this, but really, most paddlers with pumps and floats on their back
decks have never used them even in practice.  I think this underscores
John Winters point about blind faith in gear, especially among the
unitiated; hell that's more than blind faith, it is expecting a miracle
to save you.

ralph diaz      





Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:46:57 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: [Paddlewise] Rolling was Re: How do you hold your paddle?

Allan Singleton wrote:

> Matt Broze wrote:
> But if I was paddling in New Zealand it would be upside down (but so would I).
>
> Now you know why I have never bothered learning to roll!

I have never learned how to roll, either.  But I have never tried very hard and
have less of an incentive to do so because of being in folding kayaks.  All of
them actually can be rolled, some easier than others, but it tends to be a
deliberate, calculated act rather than one of necessity, the exception being
something like the Feathercraft Khatsalano (all 3 or 4 versions that have been
made), which, in that respect, acts more like a hardshell than say a Nautiraid
Raid 1 or Klepper single.

Having said that, however, I do dabble in learning how to roll now and then.  I
tried early on about 10 years ago when I thought I would be using single
hardshells but then stopped the effort when I saw the light in the folding
singles.  But of late, I have tried again.  I am now in the process of being
real earnest about it over the winter, thanks to the kind efforts of Gabriel
Romeu, a fellow PaddleWiser and friend, who is going out of his way to get me to
lessons with some of the best rolling instructors in the business, at least on
the East Coast.

I still lack the driving incentive because of what I paddle.  If I had stayed in
hardshells, I would most definitely have learned how to roll.  I would never own
a hardshell unless I was on the road to developing a roll.

Funny how our various schools of thought can co-exist, i.e. those who see this
as a wet sport (one of local great local instructors, Ray Killen, ends his all
his mail with "Stay Wet!) and those, like me, who believe in staying dry and on
top.  While there are some in the "Stay Wet!" school (not at all Ray) tend to
deny the legitimacy of the Stay Dry school (I hear comments, not always in jest,
about when am I going to get into a "real" sea kayak), I suspect a lot more
understanding all around is what prevails these days thanks in great part to
forums such as Paddlewise.

ralph diaz



Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:09:51 -0800
From: ralph diaz 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling, rolling, keep them kayaks . . .

KiAyker@... wrote:
> 
>    Actually, the discussion on rec.boats.paddle.touring began with someone's
> claim that all competent trip leaders should know how to roll. A position
> which I have been staunchly arguing against. It then degenerated into the
> proposition that all competent sea kayakers should know how to roll. Again, I
> don't agree. Mr. Bowles, whom I believe is a part of this list also, makes a
> valid point when he throws canoeing into the equation.
>    As I pointed out on the newsgroup, there are various levels of sea
> kayaking, each requiring different amounts of skill and equipment. People who
> are content exploring calm water on the weekend certainly do not need to know
> how to roll. They are still, nevertheless, part of our sea kayaking
> community. I also do not believe that people who enjoy well run group trips
> need to be up on their solo rescues either. Of course, it wouldn't hurt! But
> it's not necessary for either the group, or the group leader to have these
> skills.
> 
> Scott

I saw Scott's posting to that newsgroup and thought it was quite
well-stated. Another thing that Scott elaborated on, but which he
doesn't mention here, is an excellent point about leaders.  He stressed
that the skills that should be looked on for them is not whether they
can roll or not but rather that they possess judgment and knowledge to
see a group reasonably safely through the waters they are paddling. 
Whether that individual has two dozen rolling techniques or not makes
little difference for the group.  He or she certainly should also have a
no-nonsense assisted rescue technique which he or she can put into
action without hesitation or pondering.

The reason I added that last point is that I know of one case years ago
here in the harbor on a busy weekend when a double kayak went over. 
Pleasure crafts were whizzing around and they were in the path of
several ferries.  The leader came over and started debating with himself
and others whether to use X method or Y method and who exactly should do
it and from what angle, etc.  A silly waste of time was being wasted in
figuring out the optimum approach when what should hold, borrowing from
Nike ads, "Just Do It!"  While he was holding court, a very skilled
old-timer solo canoeist just paddled up and did the rescue, no bull
shit.

best,

ralph
-- 




Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:48:18 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Survey results

Scott, 

Thanks for taking the time to do this survey.  I have a couple of
comments:

KiAyker@... wrote:

>    The problem I have been having has to do with putting a value on the
> Eskimo roll for touring/sea kayakers.  While I agree that learning the roll
> usually makes learning bracing and other skills easier, and it can instill a
> greater sense of self confidence in the paddler (a good thing?), the fact
> remains that some very dramatic voyages have been undertaken by kayakers who
> could not roll, either because they lacked the skill, or because the boat
> they were using was not rollable. SNIP I just donâ^Ā^Ųt understand
> why the roll is apparently of such great importance to beginning sea kayakers
> while it is virtually ignored by experienced  canoeists and explorers?

A lot of the dramatic voyages have been done in folding kayaks and so to
a degree this is true.  Folding kayaks can be rolled but not as reliably
as other kayaks.  Depends on the model.  In any folding kayak you need
to be tightly positioned in the boat and few people bother to set up
their foldables in that way except for performance ones like the
Khatsalano.  And with many a dramatic voyage involving double foldables,
the task of rolling in an emergency is even more askewed.  I have seen
double foldables rolled but mainly as what I term a circus act, i.e.
alongside a dock, carefully set up, lots of discussions, agreement on a
countdown to coordinate the roll etc.  I can't imagine two guys or gals
in a double into their 20 mile on a particular day when they suddenly
get knocked over having the instinct to perform a coordinated roll while
fatigued and lost in their own thoughts when they suddenly hit the
water.  Same with a solo paddler in a double folding kayak, another
standard for longish voyages.  It would be a bitch to roll.

But in singles like the Khats (or its sister Feathercraft, the K-1),
rolling should be a self-required skill for any deep water voyager.

Back to the dramatic voyages.  Who doubts that Lone Madsen, who perished
a year or two ago in Greenland in her hardshell, would not have had a
different story to tell if she had known how to roll.  I can't see how
anyone would attempt what she did in such hairy waters without a very
reliable roll and an impeccable reenter-and-roll as a backup.  She
simply could not do either and was not up to even a paddle float rescue
from what I understand, albeit conditions would have taxed any paddle
float rescue attempt.


> answers I received. 37% responded that they could not roll, 34% could roll
> close to 100% of the time, and the rest fell in between.

Rolling has been an evolving phenomenon.  Better teaching methods,
better outfitting of boats and contagious enthusiasm have tended to up
the figures of those who can roll reliably or have any rolling ability. 
Depends on the paddling circles you run in.  In some paddling circles, a
high portion of people roll and a high portion within that have a pretty
reliable combat roll.  In others, the percentages are quite low. 
Figures for PaddleWise can be somewhat askewed since this is an
enthusiasts listserver and perhaps people are reluctant to admit they
can't.  But the figures you come up with are in keeping with what I have
seen in some paddling circles.  And it is improving.

 About 5 years ago I was at the Delmarva Paddlers Retreat which draws a
more skilled crowd of paddlers and is a mecca now for Greenlandic
paddling.  A show of hands came up with about 20% saying they had a
reliable or combat roll.  I would suspect that now that same group would
be up around a third as your survey comes up with, perhaps even higher. 
(But if you were to ask that question in my paddling crowd at the
Boathouse, you would find that those with a combat roll would be, at
best, in the low single digit percentage and a very low percentage could
say they have done any rolling at all.)

What has helped is better teaching styles, the spread of better
instructor types (official, certified or not official nor certified),
and the good ole Greenland paddle, which simplifies teaching rolling. 
When I first started paddling a dozen years ago and thought I would wind
up in a hardshell, I took some serious stabs at learning to roll.  My
story is quite comical and I will share that in print one day...but I
didn't learn.  Groups too big in terms of people to instructor ratios,
too brief sessions, and instructors who weren't as attuned to the needs
of a wide range of people's needs and ways of learning.  Then I
discovered the real worth and reliability of single folding kayaks and
just dropped the rolling quest.

More recently I have returned to the rolling pursuit, mainly because I
am a curious soul not for any real need in the type of boat I paddle
(which won't really tip over easily and are quite easy to re-enter
without props).  Also Gabriel Romeu, who I met via PaddleWise,
generously offered to make the logistics easy for me to get to some
excellent instructors with good one-on-one oppportunities for long
enough time slots. After some so-so attempts last year, it finally
worked for me in January.  The ingredients were a good instructor, Dan
Smith of Philadelphia, the Greenland paddle in a Pawlata extended paddle
grip, and the right method of instruction that clicked for me (Dan uses
something like what Matt Broze says in his web page about going through
the stages components particularly from finish position back down into
the water).  15 minutes with Dan and I was rolling over and over again;
sloppy, poor technique, but rolling nevertheless.  So now I am rolling a
hardshell in a pool with the normal progression of most people who have
learned to roll (i.e. some good sessions followed by regression into
piss poor sessions).  I intend to followup over the coming months with a
Euro paddle and a folding kayak such as the K-Light.  I doubt I will
ever get a combat roll as there isn't that much of an incentive for one
in the boats I paddle.  Moreover, I do think this should be a dry sport
not a wet sport as some insist.  I want to be on the surface and favor
boats that will keep me there not ones that I have to coax to stay
upright with an assortment of skills and then recover with a roll from
wet if I do capsize.

My final thought.  If a person like me can learn to roll at the ripe age
of 61 with little pressing urgency or incentive to do so, then certainly
anyone can and should if paddling a hardshell under 23.55 inch beam
(how's that for being arbitrary :-)).  Whether you then can progress to
a reliable roll in combat situations is another matter.  But if you
paddle the kind of boat that can more easily capsize and is harder to
remount, then do go for it.

Thanks for listening,

ralph diaz
-- 




From: Bob Denton
Subject: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 15:20:47 -0400

I had a chance to try and roll a K-Light on Saturday and gave up after 3
attempts. I had no problem flicking back off the bow of another boat but
couldn't get any purchase on the Feathercraft. There was too much lateral
movement. It felt like a couple of foam hip pads may do the trick?

Does anyone roll a K-Light? If so, how did you outfit it? 

cya



Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:10:20 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite
 
I haven't but have watched it done.  Also had a lead article in one of
my newsletters this year about rolling one.  Apparently when the boat
was first introduced in 1993, Chris Cunningham, editor of Sea Kayaker,
got in one and rolled and rolled it over again.

The person who I saw do it over and over again in a pool in Philadelphia
was a first time roller, really learning on the K-Light how to roll.  He
had no particular padding inside (nor on him...a small fellow).  He was
also using the slippery seasock.  He almost got an off side roll in the
sessions I watched him.

The secret?  Obviously padding would help and there are sorts of
approaches to this.  But another few tricks to try are:

--bring the foot pedals closer to you than is normally comfortable. 
This helps jam you in place more tightly driving your knees into the
deck fabric for better grip.

--recognize that the boat has a bit more inertia to it than a
hardshell.  So let the boat come up more on its own before doing a sweep
or whatever roll you do (this I got from Ken Fink of Poseidon Kayaks in
Walpole Maine, who regularly teaches people how to roll using K-Lights.

ralph diaz
-- 



Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:36:34 +0200
From: Reinhold Werner Weber
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

It is generally known that foldables with air-sponsons are very difficult to
roll. On the other hand, they don't turn over in rough seas easily.

But some people have done it. See:

Dave rolls a Klepper
http://www.vsb.cape.com/~mccue/docs/klepper.html

In the July/August number of Kanu Magazin (in German) there was a photo of a
Feathercraft Klondike (a double!) being rolled. With air-sponsons deflated,
they indicated. 

But these are rare, exceptional performances.

Reinhold Weber 



Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 07:21:27 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

While it takes a lot to roll a double folding kayak, it is not
exceptional.  Any pair of good rollers can do it.  I have seen it done
with the double Klepper, which is wider than the Klondike by almost half
a foot, and with the sponsons inflated.  The hardest job may be in
tipping the boat over in the first place.  The pair I saw had to
practically dive over the side while attached to their sprayskirts in
order to get the boat to flip.

But the issue of rolling a folding kayak is almost academic.  They are
not prone to tip and even a modicum of a brace will keep you upright in
absolutely insane waters, or just working like the devil to stay
centered in your boat will do.

I first became really aware of this when I was out in a Klepper Aerius I
with friends who were in hardshells.  We were together in a particularly
funny spot on the Connecticut coast in which waters were swirling and
clashing around some islands.  My friends were within a boat length or
two of me and had to brace to keep their kayaks steady.  I was so
fascinated by their bracing that I put down my paddle, placed it in its
paddle pocket and reached into my lunch bag.  While in the very same
conditions as they, I eat a half a sandwich watching them bracing.

Most folding kayaks have a low brace built into them.  They all can tip
but they have to go pretty far over to do so.

I am not certain that a folding kayak, except a very slim one like the
Khatsalano, could be reliably rolled, i.e. a roll seeing you through
like it might in a slimmer hardshell or skinboat.  Rolling is more of a
circus act, to be performed like the pair I saw with the Klepper and the
guys in Germany mentioned above with their Feathercraft Klondike.

ralph diaz
-- 



From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:59:13 EDT
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

Reinhold Werner Weber writes:

<< It is generally known that foldables with air-sponsons are very difficult to
roll. ... >>

What type of boat do you normally roll, Reinhold?

There's a couple of guys in NYC who roll their Klepper Aerius II on the Hudson
(without special outfitting, I believe).

The K-Lite rolls rather well actually, as does the Khatsalano. Ralph Diaz's
advice about jamming your legs under the deck helps if you have not yet
outfitted the boat to suit your build. The trick is to keep your heels close
together and splay out your knees under the coaming to also gain sufficient
lateral hold.

I have sculled a K1 with both ears in the water and had no trouble at all
getting back up (the owner / dealer asked me not to roll because he did not
want to get an aluminium framed boat full of saltwater in case I punched
out :-)

And, dare I point it out, the Pouch singles E65 (no sponsons) and E68 (sponsons
and 27" beam) roll with little trouble (pictures on www.PouchBoats.com to prove
it in the case of the latter). 

Grinning from ear to ear ...

Ralph C. Hoehn



From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:25:01 EDT
Subject: [Paddlewise] Rolling folding kayaks

ralph diaz writes:

> I am not certain that a folding kayak, except a very slim one like the
> Khatsalano, could be reliably rolled, i.e. a roll seeing you through like it
> might in a slimmer hardshell or skinboat.  Rolling is more of a circus act,
> to be performed like the pair I saw with the Klepper and the guys in Germany
> mentioned above with their Feathercraft Klondike.
>

Ralph, 

1 - Learning to roll of course always makes for excellent skills practice -- even
in a folding kayak. But I agree that in the case of the latter rolling might come
under the category of "circus act" in the best possible sense.

2 - On the other hand I wish I'd had the guts to invert in the face of a
particularly nasty breaker and roll back up on the other side a couple of months
ago because I'm sure that the bottom of my boat would have proved much more
resilient than my neck and back. No circus trick that! 

(For the record: After getting slammed quite hard the boat just punched through
and popped up on the other side of the wave on an even keel unscathed -- I got
a free back rub that evening, poor baby :-)

The Other Ralph



Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:23:32 +0200
From: Reinhold Werner Weber
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 [Ralph C. Hoehn] wrote:

> What type of boat do you normally roll, Reinhold?

Why should I normally roll my Klepper?? I've never heard that getting its canvas
deck wet will make it last longer! Rolling a foldable with air-sponsons is a
circus act, really fun, but you don't need it. I have been watching Faltboot.de
(the German folding news group) now for some time, but I haven't noticed yet a
discussion about rolling foldables. That is difference with respect to plastic
boats, where it is an important safety feature. 

> And, dare I point it out, the Pouch singles E65 (no sponsons) and E68
> (sponsons and 27" beam) roll with little trouble (pictures on
>  www.PouchBoats.com to prove it in the case of the latter). 

I am looking forward to see a Pouch RZ 96 double being rolled on your site. This
would be some kind of "Ersatz" to PW Members for the picture of the Klondike
(print only).

>
> Grinning from ear to ear ...
> 

But let's get a bit more serious: I wrote that folders with air-sponsons are
difficult to roll, not foldables in general. Let's remember that the eskimo-roll
was re-invented by Eddi Hans Pawlata in the twenties in a slim greenland style
folding kayak. For an example see:

http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell.html

(It's the Gesa-Möll Marian Gunkel, maintainer of Pouch inofficial has acquired
and restored. German text and lots of pictures.)

These were folding kayaks to be rolled. Today they have nearly died out. Two
models subsist:
 Nautiraid Greenlander (with 'stabilairs')
 Pouch Falt-Eski
Both don't seem to be commercial successes. Perhaps you might comment on the
Falt-Eski.

Reinhold Weber
 


From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:52:22 EDT
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

Couldn't resist a point-by-point here:

> RH: What type of boat do you normally roll, Reinhold?
> RWW: Why should I normally roll my Klepper?? I've never heard that getting its
> canvas deck wet will make it last longer! 

RH: Pickling it in brine helps to check the rot, just don't wash it with fresh
water later! My RZ85 (double) has survived 30 years of such "abuse" :-)

> RWW: Rolling a foldable with air-sponsons is a circus act, really fun, but
> you don't need it. 

RH: Most of the time you don't need your PFD, GPS, first aid kit, tow rope ...
in fact I don't need to be able to do a handstand either, but practicing it has
certain indirect benefits nonetheless. As I pointed out previously: Bracing,
sculling and rolling practice is a good back-up to (boat-) form-stability
complacency!

> RWW: I have been watching Faltboot.de (the German folding news group) now for
> some time, but I haven't noticed yet a discussion about rolling foldables. 

RH: Excellent point. I'd better start one. Or do you want to? :-)

> RWW: That is difference with respect to plastic boats, where it is an
> important safety feature. 

RH: I expect that most hard shell paddlers never actually need a roll either.
Depends on the boat, the paddling circumstances etc. Ralph Diaz has written
eloquently on the subject with regard to folding boats here recently, so no need
to go into it further.
 
> RH: And, dare I point it out, the Pouch singles E65 (no sponsons) and E68
> (sponsons and 27" beam) roll with little trouble (pictures on
> www.PouchBoats.com to prove it in the case of the latter). 
> RWW: I am looking forward to see a Pouch RZ 96 double being rolled on your
> site. This would be some kind of "Ersatz" to PW Members for the picture of the
> Klondike (print only).

RH: I take that as a challenge :-)). But I need a partner for this: My usual bow
man is only 3 feet tall. Anyone Wise Paddlers in the Stamford CT area up for it?
On-water demo day in South Norwalk CT coming up this Saturday ...

> RH: Grinning from ear to ear ...
> RWW: But let's get a bit more serious: ...

RH: And here I was trying not to be a "typical" German.

> RWW: ... I wrote that folders with air-sponsons are dificult to roll, not
> foldables in general. Let's remember that the eskimo-roll was re-invented by
> Eddi Hans Pawlata in the twenties in a slim greenland style folding kayak. 

RH: 1927 it was. Franz von Alber was next and the Rautenberg brothers probably
have a justified claim to having developed a roll independently. "Kipp Kipp
Hurra! Im reinrassigen Eskimokajak!" Do you have access to a copy?

> RWW: For an example see:
> http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell.html (It's the Gesa-Möll Marian Gunkel, 
> maintainer of Pouch inofficial has acquired and restored. German text and 
> lots of pictures.)

RH: He has so far refused to send it over here for me to "test". (See, Marian,
now it's out in the open and you're embarrassed. I warned you about this!!)

> RWW: These were folding kayaks to be rolled. Today they have nearly died out.
> Two models subsist:
>  Nautiraid Greenlander (with 'stabilairs')
>  Pouch Falt-Eski
> Both don't seem to be commercial successes. Perhaps you might comment on the
> Falt-Eski.

RH: The Pouch Falt-Eski clearly and regrettably did not appeal to a large enough
market to secure its commercial viability. The boat was designed for one 
particular paddler in such a way as to suit his not-so-standard dimensions. If
you're going to spend the kind of money that it takes to get a commercial 
builder to create such a craft, you want it to fit perfectly, after all, Arctic
kayaks were built specifically for each paddler. But never say never in the 
context of a Pouch Falt-Eski ...

Also, there is a surprisingly large "underground" of folding kayak builders out
there. If you're interested, drop me a line off-list, so we don't bore the rest
of the PaddleWisenheimers to tears with more "mere" folding kayak stuff. :-)

Ralph C. Hoehn



Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:38:02 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

The Nautiraid Greenlander went through 3 generations in about a dozen
years.  The current one is 27 inches wide and not meant to roll.

The original Nautiraid Greenlander was 19 inches wide without air
sponsons.  It was highly rolleable.  It was also highly unpaddleable for
most people and was not a success (it was later given sponsons that took
the boat to about 23-24 inch beam but it too did not sell well).  For
some reason folding kayaks that are on the narrow side often seem much
more tippy than a hardshell of the same dimensions.  Take for example
the Feathercraft Khatsalano without sponsons which has a beam of around
22 inches.  It feels more tippy than a hardshell of that beam or of even
21 inch beam.  That particular model, as well as the Khatsalano with
sponsons, seems to want to tip to one side when at rest, i.e. rest on
one chine or another.  It is disconcerting until you get used to it.  It
leaves you with a sideways slouch.

ralph diaz
-- 



Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:31:54 +0200
From: Marian Gunkel 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite

Reinhold Weber wrote:

> I have been watching Faltboot.de (the German folding news group) now for
> some time, but I haven't noticed yet a discussion about rolling > foldables.
> That is difference with respect to plastic boats, where it is an important
> safety feature.

This might be a function of the German folding kayakers in general: they
seem to be rather conservative in learning "new" things and they are also
quite lazy whern it comes to safety issues. Wearing a PFD almost all the
time puts me into the position of an outsider (although the call for more
safety begins to work!). The same with things like paddle or bracing
techniques.
If I recall it correctly, there are more fatalities among the German touring
paddlers than among the WW paddlers (the latter are very safety concious).

> Reinhold Weber: > I am looking forward to see a Pouch RZ 96 double being
> rolled on your site. This would be some kind of "Ersatz" to PW Members for
> the picture of the Klondike (print only).

I'll be putting that Klondike picture some place on my website so that PW
members can have a look too. I won't be able to get my hands on a RZ 96
double soon, so I have to rely on some willing American paddlers rolling
Ralphs boat on the demo day in CT.

> But let's get a bit more serious: I wrote that folders with air-sponsons
> are dificult to roll, not foldables in general. Let's remember that the
> eskimo-roll was re-invented by Eddi Hans Pawlata in the twenties in a slim
> greenland style folding kayak. For an example see:
>
> http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell.html
>
> (It's the Gesa-Möll Marian Gunkel, maintainer of Pouch inofficial has
> acquired and restored. German text and lots of pictures.)

Shame on me, I don't have any pictures with the boat on the water yet
(although I paddled it twice since I got the new skin last week). The
Moell-Kayak had been constructed to paddle mainly WW but also coastal water
with some touring luggage. Rolling in it is definitively easy and the boat
contact can only be compared to a Kathsalano. Unfortunately, the boat has
only been manufactured in the 50's an early 60's and some 20 models were
produced.

On rolling: I can roll a K-Light very easily as well as an Pouch E 68, and
with some little difficulties my 45 year old Pouch E65. As has been stated
already, rolling a kayak is mainly a matter of good boat contact and good
technique: both the K-Light and the E 68 provide very good boat contact.

>
> These were folding kayaks to be rolled. Today they have nearly died out.

Some German kayakers are quite successful in designing and building foldable
sea kayaks. There's a world besides the commercial boat builders ... :-)

> Two models subsist:
>  Nautiraid Greenlander (with 'stabilairs')
>  Pouch Falt-Eski
> Both don't seem to be commercial successes. Perhaps you might comment on
> the Falt-Eski.

I am not Ralph but may I comment? The Pouch Falt-Eski
(www.pouch-inoffiziell.de/boote/falteski.html in German) had been designed
by someone more than 2 meters (thats somewhere above 6 ft ..): apparently
the boat wasn't very well received by the market (also due to some changes
in the ribs that improved the boats initial stability) so Pouch decided to
stop it's production. In my opinion and in the opinion of the few Falt-Eski
owners, the boat tracks really great and it handled good on choppy waters.
So, the boat might not be dead.

On commercial success: both boats aim for a very small target group. Since
the folding kayak market is a niche itself, those boats really *can't* be
commercial successes.

Disclaimer: I am sympathising with Pouch and am the webmaster of
Pouch-inoffiziell.de (non commercial) and PouchBoats.com (commercial).

Regards,
Marian




Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:23:59 +0100
From: Marian Gunkel
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folkding Kayaks Topic on PW Website

> For those interested in discussion on folding kayaks, you might
> want to check out the PaddleWise web pages on folding kayaks at
> http://www.paddlewise.net/topics/foldingkayak/

Reading through the folding kayak topics, I remembered to having promised
publishing a picture of a Feathercraft Klondike being rolled.
You'll see it at http://www.mariangunkel.de/pics/klondike_roll.jpg
(copyright by Kanu Magazin)
This picture appeared in an article comparing some folding kayak doubles.

I also translated the page on the greenlandic folding kayak Gesa Moell into
English (with some help) and added some photos of the boat in use:

http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell_e.html


Regards,
Marian
 Marian Gunkel, Berlin, Germany





Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:45:22 +1100
From: PJ Rattenbury
Subject: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats

	All,   

	Do any Klepper or Feathercraft owners roll their boats?  I mean in real
conditions, not as a 'circus trick' as Ralph Diaz so aptly describes it.
	By real conditions, I mean in the sort of sea/swell/wind /surf mix which
would put you upside down in one of these boats?
	This issue is of importance to me, as the owner of a single Klepper who is
constantly asked about rolling the thing by my glass/plastic boat owning
friends.
	My reply to them is why would I want to roll a boat which by reason of its
air sponsons is difficult to roll in ideal conditions, and in fact the
whole notion is contrary to the design of the boat.
	And  how are you going to hang upside down in a Klepper, without
dangerously compromising your ability to safely and efficiently wet exit. I
just do not think you can fit out the Klepper's large and wide cockpit
without going to ludicrous measures. 
	All this, however, places even a greater onus on owners of boats like mine
to religiously practice self rescue techniques other than rolling.  And
because I paddle mostly in open sea,  this means practice in realistically
rough conditions.
	It seems to me, that rolling is something which my friends constantly
obsess about; and I guess if I owned a boat which allowed me to hang upside
down in force four [ or worse ] conditions while  I set up for a roll, I
would practice the same technique.
	At this end of the world [ Australia ], there is such an emphasis on
rolling ability that it has now become a dictum that if you don't roll, you
aren't really a seakayaker. This I think comes from the mind set of really
expert kayakers who can roll up if they are trashed on a surf exit or
entry,  which is where most of us come unstuck.
	We recently had a 'club incident' in which a number of kayakers found
themselves floundering around tipped out of their boats [ all glass or
plastic ] in worsening wind and sea conditions about a kilometre off a
rocky lee  shore, and unable to self rescue.
	In other words they needed other kayakers/ or rescuers from shore to help
them get upright and/or out of danger.
Some of these folks had probably practiced rolling,  but when they
encountered a suprise capsize, which is quite a different kettle of fish to
a controlled set up roll in flat calm,  they failed to rescue themselves.
	Again, it is my observation, that if you are going to rely on a roll as
the primary  self rescue technique, then this should incorporate a re-entry
upside down, and roll up.  And how many of us can do that, or practice this?
	Any thoughts, folks, particularly from the good 'ol folding boat community?
	Peter Rattenbury
	


From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:18:18 EST
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats

Peter Rattenbury:
> Do any Klepper or Feathercraft owners roll their boats?  I mean in real
> conditions, not as a 'circus trick' as Ralph Diaz so aptly describes it.
> By real conditions, I mean in the sort of sea/swell/wind /surf mix which
> would put you upside down in one of these boats?

Ralph Hoehn: Peter, that depends. 

Khatsalano owners will happily roll all day long and are well advised to be 
able to do so. At least some larger and heavier users of K-Light and Alu-Lite 
will also benefit from a roll even under "normal" paddling circumstances. 

Let's expand your question to the wider range of currently available folding 
boats:

In a broad generalization Folbot, Klepper and Nautiraid singles, as well as 
the Feathercraft K1 and the Pouch E65 will not need to be rolled under normal 
circumstances, nor are they intended to be, but, as Jochen Grikschat points 
out, ("rolling for everyone"): Having the skills to perform a roll will make 
your paddling in general that much more self-confident. 

Seavivor singles (I'm told) and the Pouch E68 can be paddled comfortably 
without ever rolling. However, if you take them into or through surf (where 
they are a lot of fun!) the ability to roll will stand you in good stead, 
increase your enjoyment of the experience and make you safer -- it will make 
the unit of you, the paddler, and your craft that much more seaworthy (no 
boat is seaworthy until it has a competent operator).

Folding doubles should probably not be rolled under real life conditions. It 
is hard and requires very good cordination. If the circumstances are such 
that you capsized in the first place, a technique, which is already 
complicated to perform in a double, will most likely become impossible. At 
that point it's easier and probably safer to perform an inverted exit, right 
the boat and reenter, the one paddler helping the other. Practice this in 
earnest!

HOWEVER: The important thing is NOT the act of rolling, but rather the 
acquisition of the skill that COULD give you the ability to roll. 

Many folding kayakers are complacent in that they love to rely on the 
"legendary" stability of their boats to see them through adversity. In short, 
steep breaking waves however this stability works against you once the 
severity of the sea state surpasses a certain point: The tendency of the boat 
to stay parallel to the surface of the water leaves you perpendicular to it 
even when the surface of the water is no longer level. Eventually that will 
lead to a capsize, unless you have the confidence and ability to brace very 
aggressively into the (breaking) wave that's about to tumble you. In fact, in 
a "stable" folding boat, your brace needs to be much more aggressive than in 
less stable craft.

I contend that having practiced inversion prevention and inversion recovery 
in any boat will be of benefit to you under such circumstances (even if you 
never take it to a full inversion and recovery, the "circus trick"; and by 
the way, Ralph Diaz continues to work hard on his rolling skills, even if he 
has no intention of ever running away to the circus, which is what I 
threatened my parents with most of a life time ago).

PR:
> This issue is of importance to me, as the owner of a single Klepper who 
> is constantly asked about rolling the thing by my glass/plastic boat owning 
> friends. My reply to them is why would I want to roll a boat which by reason 
> of its air sponsons is difficult to roll in ideal conditions, and in fact the 
> whole notion is contrary to the design of the boat.

RH: (pet peeve: It's not the air sponsons that give the boat stability, but 
the area, shape and distribution (along the length of the boat) of the hull's 
submerged cross sections. Increasing beam will tend to increase stability -- 
whether the exterior shape of the hull is determined by the outline of the 
boat's sponsonless frame or by inserted sponsons or by the skin being stuffed 
full of old socks is irrelevant. Inflatable sponsons provide no stability 
until the boat is swamped.) 

I quite agree with you that the notion of rolling a Klepper single (and most 
other folding singles for that matter) is contrary to its design of course. 
These boats were designed for relatively calm river touring, not for sea 
kayaking; they are not intended to invert. However, more and more kayakers 
are pushing the envelope of what is possible with these boats. To do so, to 
take the boats beyond their design limits, you need skills and technique ... 
or you have to change to a boat which is designed for more extreme 
conditions. 

Incidentally, Edi Hans Pawlata writes in his introduction to "Kipp, kipp 
hurrah!" (published in 1928) describes how he was not only proud to see his 
first student perform a roll in a narrow, Greenland-type hull, but for that 
same student to effect the technique in a "normal" river touring (folding) 
boat. The design of the latter is likely to have been very similar to 
traditional folding singles like the Klepper (as opposed to the more recently 
developed folding boats entering the market in the last few years).

PR:
> And  how are you going to hang upside down in a Klepper, without 
> dangerously compromising your ability to safely and efficiently wet exit. I 
> just do not think you can fit out the Klepper's large and wide cockpit 
> without going to ludicrous measures. 

RH: 
- Retrofitting solid footrests (if they are not factory installed) is 
something one should do to any (folding) boat unless the transverse frames 
happen to provide decent purchase for your feet. 
- A firm, fixed seat and back rest should be a standard requirement. 
- I've had no problems bracing my knees under the coaming of Klepper doubles 
for my third vital contact point to effect boat control (in single paddler 
mode). 
- The only modification I made to my Pouch RZ96 for pool training was to 
strap inflatable buoyancy bags to the frame at the gunwales on either side of 
the seat: Perfect, cheap, infinitely adjustable outfitting. 

None of it ludicrous in my book, none of it interfered in any way with my 
ability to exit inverted. Try it (especially the exit!), practice it ... 
Jochen Grikschat is somewhat of an extreme paddler (about whom one might here 
more in this respect in due course); nonetheless he admits to fear in a boat 
and a decrease of that fear after learning certain techniques AND practicing 
them. This does apply to folding boats no less!

PR:
> All this, however, places even a greater onus on owners of boats like 
> mine to religiously practice self rescue techniques other than rolling.  And 
> because I paddle mostly in open sea,  this means practice in realistically 
> rough conditions.

RH: Rolling your Klepper single is NOT a rescue technique until you are VERY 
good at it. Preventing an inversion is your first best form of "rescue" and, 
I trust, you practice this religiously, too. Of course practicing reentry 
techniques is a prerequisite for your type of paddling for the time when all 
else fails ... but I'd prefer not to put myself at risk of hungry critters 
(;-) or, more importantly, hypothermia in the first place. 

Therefore I strongly advocate that even, no, especially (complacent) folding 
boat owners wake up and practice boat control techniques (which, in my 30 
years in folding boats, I have seen very few do ... including me for the 
first few years until the usefulness of technique use was pointed out to me 
by courtesy of a relatively benign mishap, which could have ended in 
disaster). If of course you only paddle on a mill pond on a perfectly calm 
sunny summer Sunday afternoon you may wish to laugh me out of court.

PR:
> It seems to me, that rolling is something which my friends constantly 
> obsess about; ... At this end of the world [ Australia ], there is such an 
> emphasis on rolling ability that it has now become a dictum that if you don't 
> roll, you aren't really a seakayaker. 

RH: Yep, people obsess about this mystical thing misnamed rolling -- wrongly 
and at the expense of seeing the greater picture.

PR:
> We recently had a 'club incident' in which a number of kayakers found 
> themselves floundering around tipped out of their boats [ all glass or 
> plastic ] in worsening wind and sea conditions about a kilometre off a rocky 
> lee  shore, and unable to self rescue.
>    In other words they needed other kayakers/ or rescuers from shore to help 
> them get upright and/or out of danger. Some of these folks had probably 
> practiced rolling,  but when they encountered a suprise capsize, which is 
> quite a different kettle of fish to a controlled set up roll in flat calm,  
> they failed to rescue themselves.
>     Again, it is my observation, that if you are going to rely on a roll as 
> the primary  self rescue technique, then this should incorporate a re-entry 
> upside down, and roll up.  And how many of us can do that, or practice this?

RH: No comment!!! 

PR:
> Any thoughts, folks, particularly from the good 'ol folding boat 
> community?

RH: A few ... now, where to start ... ;-)

Ralph




From: "ralph diaz"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:29:44 -0500

From: "PJ Rattenbury"
>
> Do any Klepper or Feathercraft owners roll their boats?  I mean in real
> conditions, not as a 'circus trick' as Ralph Diaz so aptly describes it.
> By real conditions, I mean in the sort of sea/swell/wind /surf mix which
> would put you upside down in one of these boats?

The Feathercraft singles, particularly the K-1 and Khatsalano, are more
enough like a hardshell in terms of tighter cockpit fit and width, that some
people do roll them more often especially the Khats.

> This issue is of importance to me, as the owner of a single Klepper who is
> constantly asked about rolling the thing by my glass/plastic boat owning
> friends.
> My reply to them is why would I want to roll a boat which by reason of its
> air sponsons is difficult to roll in ideal conditions, and in fact the
> whole notion is contrary to the design of the boat.
> And  how are you going to hang upside down in a Klepper, without
> dangerously compromising your ability to safely and efficiently wet exit.
> I just do not think you can fit out the Klepper's large and wide cockpit
> without going to ludicrous measures.

Actually you could equip the Klepper pretty adequately to keep you locked in
enough not to fall out if upside down.  When I had my Klepper, I had
sidebags alongside me in the cockpit that were so tight that they would have
held me in an upside position particularly if I put my knees under the
crossrib just a bit forward of the seat.   That crossrib is cut in a way
that I, at my torso length and leg length, could brace with my legs just
back from the knees.  Believe me, I was locked in.  I never tried rolling
and the boat, at its width and with those sponsons, would have resisted a
roll some.  But it certainly would have been doable.

But, as you point out, rolling isn't a practical self-defense or self-rescue
technique in a Klepper.  You best bet is prevention.  Stay well centered in
your single Klepper, and there isn't much that will knock you over except
stupidity.  A case in point on the latter happened during one of those
Trailside shows, the one in which Eric Stiller circumnavigated Manhattan
with the show's host at the time, Peter Whittaker.  Peter was in a single
Klepper and Eric in an-unaccustomed-for-him Khatsalano (Eric had sold and
promoted Kleppers for some 20 years or so).  They were in the area of some
whirling waters in the Hell Gate vicinity.  Peter got his paddle caught in a
downward whirl of a whirlpool.  Instead of letting go or slicing the blade
back up, he hung on to it figuring he could muscle it up.  He couldn't and
flipped.  I found it hilarious that the more stable boat went over.
Experience showed since Eric was a long-time paddler and would not have let
that happen to him.

ralph diaz
--




Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:25:24 +1100
From: PJ Rattenbury
Subject: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats

	Thanks Ralph H, and others for interesting posts on this issue. 

	Ralph I agree with your points.  After sending my first post I immediately
thought of the Khats crowd, and how they probably bought their boat so they
COULD roll!

	But down this part of the world, ANY folding boat is a very rare beast. I
have heard a rumor there is a Khats or two in Australia but I have never
seen one.  I see the odd Klepper around, and there are one or two
Feathercraft  K1 and Lite devotees among the dozens of glass and plastic
boat owners in my local seakayaking club.   Understandably, the
conversation down under is dominated by how to develop bombproof rolls and
the finer points of repairing and altering fibreglass hulls [ ( ;- ] !

	I think we agree that folding boat owners should really emphasise their
ability to brace.  The irony, as you point out, is that you can get by
without bracing much of the time in these fat boats, until you REALLY need
to brace!  In other words the primary stability breeds laziness.

	Your comments on your cockpit fit out are interesting. One of my first
modications on the Klepper was to throw away their steering cable chains,
replacing them with high-wear cordage which  I can loop around and clip to
a rib when I am not using the rudder.  This modification enables me to
brace the rudder pedals in an upright position and thus have  nice firm
footrests. I am fortunately of the right size to be able to also  jam
myself into the cockpit and CAN hang upside down in the boat. Just for fun. 

	Which leads me to a few other points in what I call the 'survive
capability' of the Klepper. The boat is very stable upside down.  In
extremis,  ie, exhausted, injured, sea-sick etc,  the boat will provide a
relatively level  platform from which to launch flares, radio, etc.   That
is, the design of the boat makes it as stable upside down, as it is the
'right side up'.  Maybe this is comforting as I live 'downunder'!  Perhaps
I should explain that I tend to paddle alone so my mindset is always to
survive alone. 

	I don't know if other foldables can be paddled full of water, but I
practice this also. Again, it is just another technique which helps you
extend the capabilities of the design.  This of course is more practical if
the boat is full of gear, or carries bow and stern floatation.  This is
where the Klepper gets its U-boat nickname!   Downunder, we tend to fit
electric pumps, and in my case I have a Rule 800gph,  and a rather large
sealed lead acid 12v battery which has proved a reliable setup over several
years. With manual pump and bucket backup of course.

	You mention that the Klepper has a 'river boat' heritage. I guess that's
right, but I am sure you will also agree that a good 'ol boat in capable
hands is still a safe prospect at sea.  And I have found that at the end of
the day,  ie, six hours into a head wind and sea,  I am still there with
the glass and plastic boats. Not the fastest, not the most fashionable, but
still there.  And I really appreciate the design's seaworthiness,  almost
an intangible, but over long hours at sea, the ability to sail, the ability
to not expend energy on maintaining stability/tracking in high wind/seas
compared with some boats,  and the relative chances of a successful
re-entry on capsize, all combine to make it a plus for survivability. 
	I AM going to pursue rolling the Klepper, out of cussedness, as much as
anything. 

	But I  will take survivability over rollability anytime. 

Peter Rattenbury




From: SeaKayakNH@...
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:04:00 EST
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats

In a message dated 2/14/01 11:53:22 PM, [Peter Rattenbury] writes:

> Which leads me to a few other points in what I call the 'survive
> capability' of the Klepper. The boat is very stable upside down.  In
> extremis,  ie, exhausted, injured, sea-sick etc,  the boat will provide a
> relatively level  platform from which to launch flares, radio, etc.   That
> is, the design of the boat makes it as stable upside down, as it is the
> 'right side up'.  << huge snip of interesting stuff >>

> But I  will take survivability over rollability anytime. 

    Peter brings up an interesting point. Various designers take different 
approaches as they strive to make their designs seaworthy and safe. A common 
feature for folding boats is to design in high stability which will offers 
protection via ease of handling as the paddle approaches exhaustion. This 
same high stability also works to keep the uninitiated somewhat safer than 
they would be in a more tender craft during early training.

    Narrow Greenland style boats (whatever that means) on the other had offer 
no such safe haven whether upright or inverted and offer nothing to the 
non-skilled paddler. But with a pilot that has the skills they do offer the 
ability to dance around in conditions that would prove quite challenging for 
large boats and they provide for the ability to self-right via the roll.  For 
pilots of narrow boats these traits are what provide safety and "survival 
capability" by allowing the craft to negotiate more extreme conditions 
upright and paddling.

    Two different approaches yield two different designs based on two 
different safety models. I don't say that one is right and the other is 
wrong, the world is too complicated for such a simplistic approach. Each 
design brings with it it's own strengths and limitations. But let each 
paddler chose their craft and be proud of their choice. We are all the richer 
for the diversity that exists.

Jed
(Khatsalano owner wannabe)



	
From: [Ralph C. Hoehn]
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 06:32:02 EST
Subject: [Paddlewise] Seaworthiness of (Folding) Kayaks

Peter Rattenbury: 

> ... You mention that the Klepper has a 'river boat' heritage. I guess
> that's right, but I am sure you will also agree that a good 'ol boat
> in capable hands is still a safe prospect at sea.  And I have found 
> that at the end of the day,  ie, six hours into a head wind and sea, I am 
> still there with the glass and plastic boats. Not the fastest, not the most 
> fashionable, but still there.  And I really appreciate the design's 
> seaworthiness,  almost an intangible, but over long hours at sea, the ability 
> to sail, the ability to not expend energy on maintaining stability/tracking 
> in high wind/seas compared with some boats,  and the relative chances of a 
> successful re-entry on capsize, all combine to make it a plus for 
> survivability. ...

Ralph Hoehn: Peter, your paragraph above makes a good approach in the context 
of harsh reality on what is usually the "myth of seaworthiness": You make the 
point that a "good ol' boat in capable hands is still a safe prospect at 
sea". (Sounds as if you've been reading Joshua Slocum! :-) I not only whole 
heartedly agree, but cannot mention it often enough: It is the combination of 
the boat AND the paddler, that makes for seaworthiness. 

Shackleton and his men survived because of their skills, as well as being in 
a small but excellent (life) boat. Pawlata ranted on (even worse than I do 
:-) about the fact that the advantages of being sealed into a decked boat 
could only be fully exploited through appropriate paddling skills (in his 
case that included rolling because of the type of craft and paddling 
environment which he favoured). My own experience at sea, especially in surf 
landings, tells the same story.

It almost appears that you feel that you need to defend the Klepper as a 
result of my comments. Not so, I had no intention of provoking such a 
reaction! Traditional singles by Folbot, Nautiraid and Pouch fall into the 
same category of "river touring boats" and are all paddled successfully and 
safely (with a portion of luck, never forget that at sea!!) on salt water in 
capable hands and I love them for it.

Enough said!

Ralph Hoehn

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