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Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 19:07:58 +0100
From: Merijn Wijnen
Subject: [Paddlewise] folders tried

Hi all,

In my search for a foldable I tried two Feathercrafts yesterday, a 
Khatsalano S, and the old model of the K1 (both without rudder). 
Yet paddling them  did not make the decision much easier. Trial 
was only possible on a large flat water pond, so I got no information 
on the behaviour in waves. My first impressions:

K1:
Wow, this is a huge machine. Lots of volume, enough for all gear 
you could possibly imagine. Acces through deck hatches is 
adequate, only the rear hatch is positioned quite far forward, so 
some stuff might get lost where you can't reach it. Not a light boat, 
probably over 25 kg. Assembly is quite complicated, with the 
welded central assy.

On the water:
Plenty of stability, both initial and final. Im am long (6'5") and 
skinny, and missed some contact with the boat. Bracing yourself 
with knees / thighs is not very easy, and due to the high coaming 
the ockpit feels very wide. I did not have a very direct feeling of the 
boat. Acceleration and speed are good, better than I would imagine 
from a boat this size. Cornering is a joy, even with the lose cockpit. 
Lean steering is effortless, telemarking very effective. 

Khatsalano S:
This is a real seakayak. Much less internal volume, but I think 
(hope?) it should be enough for most trips. The bow volume can be 
reached through a deck hatch, but the longerons a much in the 
way. Rear volume is good accesible. The boat is quite light. The 
boat is quite low, and I have some problems getting my large feet 
(size 12.5-13) at the right positions. (This is a problem I do have 
with more boats: a Skerray does not fit only due to this reason, 
and even in a Sea Lion I have a hard job getting my feet in place. 
Does anybody have this problem also?)
On the water:
The first few strokes the boat feels much more tippy than  the K1. 
However,  you get used to it quite quickly. The final stability is 
quite good. The cockpit has a snug fit, and bracing is effective due 
to the extra stiffening bars. This gives a good feel of control.
Cornering is less easy than with the K1, but still easy enough. 
Telemarking is less effective than in the K1, but that is partially due 
the the lower stability: more experience is required to get the 
feeling how far the bout can be put on its side. Remarkable is the 
effortless glide. It feels a lot faster than the K1.

And now the problem of choice:
What I like in the old model K1:
-internal volume
-accessebility of the forward volume
-manouverability
-stability

What I don't like in the old model K1:
- huge cockpit with limited bracing
-heavy


What I like in the Khat S:
-snug fit, lots of feeling
-fast
-light

 What I don't like in the Khat S:
-just enough space for my feet
-Limited internal volume, and limited acces to the forward volume

So now the problem of choice:
Both boats are fine in their own way. Both boats are now available 
at a reduced price (25% off new), so that is a good deal. My most 
important doubts are:
Weight: I plan to take the boat on a plane, so weight is 
consideration. The 5 kg weight difference can cost some money on 
the plane.
Volume: Is the internal volume of the Khat S enough for most 
camping trips? (I take a tent, cooker, personal stuff, water for some 
days)
Stability: on flat water the difference in stability was not important, 
however, at sea this might be different. The nearest dealer where I 
cab try the boat at sea is in Germany, 400 miles away, so it is 
difficult for me to try the boats there.
Cockpit fit:
I love the snug fit and good bracing in the Khat S. Is it possible add 
bracing-stuff to the K1 to get a better cockpit feeling? And how is 
the new K1 compared with the old K1 on this point?
For the K1: 
The old model K1 has some disadvantages. I know the German 
dealer has a used K1 model 98 for sale, it is a bit mor expensive 
than the old model. Is the difference worth the money?

Questions, questions. Please help me out with some real world 
experiences.

Greetings,
Merijn Wijnen




Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:16:34 -0800
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] The best defense.....More "S" topics

LedJube@... wrote:
> 
> Obviously addressed to the Gentleman for NY with a nod to the gentleman from
> BC:
> 
>     How appropriate is the Khatsano or KhatsanoS for those of us that prefer
> high performance (narrow and lively) and high energy paddles?  Is there a
> better folder for this kind of paddling?  I love the idea of a folder,
> dislike the thought of the cost but want another boat to play in.  There will
> be no fishing/photography/gunkholeing for me.  I want a folder for fast-paced
> day trips in well-featured conditions, Greenland skills practice and the like.

The Khatsalano in either of its forms (1. Plain has smallish sponsons
that you elect to inflate or not inflate, beam is 22 inches if I recall
2. the S version has bigger sponsons that you have to have inflated)
would work well for Greenlandic style paddling etc.  But they are
expensive; around $4K but you can find them used at around $3K, 2 or 3
years old.  Since the company has revolutionized its hull and deck
material and the way they are mated, prices on used Feathercrafts are
likely to soften a bit more.

I am okay in the Khatsalano S but prefer more stability yet; so in that
end of the Feathercraft family, I prefer the K-1 especially now that
they have lengthened it a half a foot and given it a sharp upswept bow
akin to that of the Khatsalano.  The Khatsalanos in general are a lot of
boat that requires the skills of Doug and kindred souls to get the most
out of.  I have run across several individuals who bought an Khats
hoping to be faster and better paddlers but wound up have to add ballast
and/or not feel comfortable in rough waters.

It really is like anything in kayaking regardless of whether soft sided
or hard sided: some boats require more skill level and they won't
necessarily make you a better paddler.  You have to make yourself a
better paddler or be one to start with.  I think a lot of people who eye
the Khats would be better off in the K-1.  The difference in top speed
between the two models is something in the order of 5 per cent.  Both
can be rolled.  The K-1 will assemble quicker than the Khats which has
more frame members including a secondary buttress frame to deal with its
extra length and narrowness.

As for other foldables that would meet the requirement you have, it is
too bad we weren't talking about this 70 years ago.  A number of the
folding kayak companies were making very impressive Greenland style
kayaks back then.  You should see the sweet one that Hans Edi Pawlata
(of Pawlata roll fame) was using in the late 20s.  Very long and narrow
kayaks with minute cockpits and adjustable bracing devices within for
good purchase/boatcontact for your knees and hips.  Or even 15 years ago
when Nautiraid was making a 16 ft by 19 inch Greenlander and weighing
around 34 pounds.  Most people couldn't paddle it and so the company
then took it to 23.5 beam; now the current Greenlander, which has a 27
inch beam, is Greenlander only in name.  A fellow offered one of the
original Nautiraid 19 inch beam Greenlanders on rec.boats.paddle in the
summer of 1999; I don't know whatever happened to it.

ralph diaz





Date: Saturday, March 25, 2000 9:33 PM
From:  Wendy
Subject: [Paddlewise] Feathercraft Khatsalano, S and Expedition K1

I apologize if this thread has been visited as I realize there's a lot of
info on folding boats and this is a very long e-mail.

I'm planning to buy a folding boat to complement my hardshell.  I'm just not
sure what would be the best model to buy as trying out a boat will most
likely be impossible since most of these boats would be special ordered in
my area and unfortunately I don't know anyone with these particular models
of folding boats.  One decision I've made is that I would like to get a
Feathercraft, now just what model, although I think right now I'm leaning
toward the Khatsalano S.  I've got the literature from Feathercraft and also
Ralph's book.

I'll give you a bit of history of my experience and boat use as that will
make a difference.

Experience:

- have paddled sprint racing flatwater kayaks & canoes, so balance is pretty
good.  I'm not sure what the kayak beam is across but probably 18 inches or
less, rounded hull.  Have paddled about 10-15 years.
- currently paddle a Current Designs GTS, 22 inches.  Unfortunately, bought
the high volume and is a bit too big for me and haven't bothered to
customize it yet, so not the best feel for the boat.  I usually sit on a
thermarest seat cushion so I can be higher up.
- previously owned a Current Designs SS, 22 inches, smaller fitting boat,
fit like a glove and it was nice to play around with -- but I sold it so I
could get more storage
- roll, I'd say is kind of non-existent since I haven't bothered to try with
the GTS since I'm moving around too much in the boat.  With the SS, could
roll but not bomb proof.  I've never put much effort in rolling since I
don't think it's that important -- if it looks like I can't handle it, I
don't bother going out.  I do know how to do self-rescues, etc.  Could
probably pick up the roll if I really wanted to, although maybe not
bombproof.
- paddle mostly around the Great Lakes, Georgian Bay area, so really not
used to ocean paddling, tides, currents, etc., but have paddled many times
on the east & west coast, Mexico and other places on vacation

Classification of experience:  I don't know, maybe intermediate???  I guess
good bracing -- more or less second nature because of the sprint kayaks.  I
don't really think that much if I'm going to perform a high or low brace,
just do it naturally as the need arises.

Paddle style:  more vertical stroke.  Usually use a paddle about 215 but
sometimes will use my scoop paddle which is even shorter.  I would probably
end up buying a four-piece paddle at 220, though, so I can stuff it in the
backpack.


Uses for the Folding boat:
- plan to take it on vacation with me.  Would probably use my hardshell when
I'm at home, and take the folding when it's more convenient or as an extra
for someone else to paddle -- whichever boat they feel more comfortable
with.
- would like to do trips of two weeks in length, possibly more -- and this
would include the arctic
- I tend to like to take the kitchen sink, but am a very efficient packer,
although I can skimp if I have to
- would probably have a deck bag on top, and large camera case on back,
extra paddles, whatever, if I was on an expedition so that may prevent
rolling if I did develop a half decent roll anyway
- usually would paddle with someone else, but occasionally on my own, likely
daytrips in that case
- not really interested in going out in big surf
- I definitely would like to feel comfortable, not having to worry if I'm
going to dump in freezing cold water (I do have a drysuit, but still would
like to stay on top).  Paddling in cold water is something I'd be in more
than not so I need to have a certain comfort level.

Choices:

Expedition K1 -- pros -- lots of storage room, very stable
cons -- is the boat too big for me -- I'm 5 foot 3 inches and a small to
medium build.  25 inch beam sounds pretty big to me and I'm afraid I might
swim in it.

Khatsalano -- 22 inches -- too advanced???

Khatsalano S -- 23.5 inches -- Is there enough room for a two-week arctic
kayak expedition, also assuming if I was doing a trip, there'd be at least
someone else so we're sharing some of the gear.  Right amount of stability
that I will reach a certain comfort level -- I don't have to do headstands
in the boat!

Your thoughts are appreciated.

thanks.


wendy



Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:43:56 -0500
From: Vince Dalrymple
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathercraft Khatsalano, S and Expedition K1

Don't even think about buying the Khats S.  It'll feel like driving a
bus (other than the speed).  I personally feel the Khats S was designed
for folks who shouldn't be in a skinny boat to begin with, overly
relying on the sponsons to keep them from tipping over, but in a boat
that with sponsons inflated would be a difficult boat to roll back up. 
How many Khatsalanos do you see come up for resale compared to the high
number of Khats Ss?  Food for thought.

Even the Khats (standard) will feel big in terms of boat fit and overly
stable for you (without the sponsons inflated).  At 5'3", you'll find
the rear deck very high for layback rolls (for when you do decide to
work on skill building).

I personally feel Doug Simpson, head of F-craft should try his hand at a
Khatsalano Sport model with about a 20~21" beam and lower deck for
easier layback.  Pick up some of the lost volume by adding another half
foot or so in length - maybe split the bow float bag to fit around the
bow keel frame to add more bow volume.  But keep it designed from the
outset for paddlers in the 120~170 lb. range.  I have too many friends in 
that weight range interested in my Khats but who feel the boat is on the 
large side for them.  Any PaddleWisers want to add their two cents to 
this - or challenge it?  I might forward the results on to Doug.

You should be able to get one (maybe two) two piece paddle(s) at the
216~218 cm length inside the backpack (which comes w/ blade pockets on
the sides - outside).

No real need to pick up a new paddle with less blade area and more
joints just to travel with your boat.  F-craft also sells a larger,
looser soft case which is supposed to be better for airline travel (my
backpack-& Khats in it-took a real beating).

Having a hardshell in addition to your Khats will work out well in order
to break the boat down for maintenance regularly w/o putting a crimp in
your regular/local paddling plans.

> - would like to do trips of two weeks in length, possibly more -- and this
> would include the arctic
> - I tend to like to take the kitchen sink, but am a very efficient packer,
> although I can skimp if I have to
> - would probably have a deck bag on top, and large camera case on back,
> extra paddles, whatever, if I was on an expedition so that may prevent
> rolling if I did develop a half decent roll anyway

Not necessarily. Start out rolling with the local whitewater group and
work on & offside proficiency in a basic C2C roll and you should be in
good standing for expeditioning.  Aim to eventually Reenter & Roll.

Word of advice; breaking surf will quickly strip years off your Khats -
it certainly has mine.  On the upside, the standard Khats is one
beautiful craft to paddle in big conditions (storm paddling) and will
survive some amount of surf abuse if you do get stuck on the outside
with dark approaching.

Unless you paddle a Klepper, you may eventually end up in the water. 
Learn to roll.

> Choices:
> 
> Expedition K1 -- pros -- lots of storage room, very stable
> cons -- is the boat too big for me -- I'm 5 foot 3 inches and a small to
> medium build.  25 inch beam sounds pretty big to me and I'm afraid I might
> swim in it.

You will swim in it, but if you reeally want the added stability, then
keep the K1 in mind.  It definitely has the cargo space for your kitchen
sink!
 
> Khatsalano -- 22 inches -- too advanced???

Best boat for you.  Not at all advanced for you.  Will be the most fun -
day in, day out.  Good camping ability with 1~2 week capability.  Just
learn to roll, please.
 
> Khatsalano S -- 23.5 inches -- Is there enough room for a two-week arctic
> kayak expedition, also assuming if I was doing a trip, there'd be at least
> someone else so we're sharing some of the gear.  Right amount of stability
> that I will reach a certain comfort level -- I don't have to do headstands
> in the boat!

Good stable platform for stand up photography.

Feel free to contact me with questions regarding my Khats and its
set-up, etc.

Vince



Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:27:19 -0800
From: ralph diaz 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathercraft Khatsalano, S and Expedition K1

As you can see from Vince's answer, there are paddlers and there are
paddlers.  Vince is a more skilled one and will look at the varying
forms of the Khats in a different way then someone coming from the other
side might.

A few of my own comments:

Vince Dalrymple wrote:

> Don't even think about buying the Khats S.  It'll feel like driving a
> bus (other than the speed).  I personally feel the Khats S was designed
> for folks who shouldn't be in a skinny boat to begin with, overly
> relying on the sponsons to keep them from tipping over, but in a boat
> that with sponsons inflated would be a difficult boat to roll back up.
> How many Khatsalanos do you see come up for resale compared to the high
> number of Khats Ss?  Food for thought.

Given your background, Vince is absolutely right.  If you have the
balancing skills to go in a skinny boat, then by all means go for the
skinnier version of the Khats.  I would agree with Vince only in part. 
_Both_ versions, the standard (in which you can elect to inflate or not
inflate the smallish built-in sponsons, is in itself a compromise boat
that was redesigned up from the non-sponsoned version because paddlers
seem to want something very skinny but couldn't handle it) and the
Khats-S in which you must use the sponsons all the time (these are
medium sized), are meant to give a measure of training wheels to a
skinny boat.  One is just more training wheels than the other.  As for
who has a right to be in a skinny boat, I don't see how anyone should be
denied going skinny or seemingly skinny.  A boat like the Khats-S
actually bridges a lot of worlds quite nicely.  It is not a barge or
bus.

As for the numbers of Khats Standard vs. Khat-S's for resale, the
numbers reflect to some degree the number of sales of one versus the
other.  But it is true that some paddlers who bought the Khats-S as an
excursion into the realm of skinny, found that it wasn't to their liking
nor did it make them better paddlers.  Something akin to this happened
in the late 1980s when many a paddler was conned into buying a Nordkapp
as a boat to grow into and it did not turn out to be that easy.  The
glut of used Nordkapps on the market was astounding but a blessing to
good paddlers who could get used ones for a song from sellers desperate
to get rid of them.  I know of one determined paddler here who went out
some 50 times with his Nordkapp until he finally felt one with it and
confident and comfortable.  In the Khats-S I have known people who
really wanted it no matter what and opted eventually to put in ballast
for the security it gave them.

> Even the Khats (standard) will feel big in terms of boat fit and overly
> stable for you (without the sponsons inflated).  At 5'3", you'll find
> the rear deck very high for layback rolls (for when you do decide to
> work on skill building).

The trouble in the Khats is not so much the high rear deck but rather
the high seatback.  It is relatively easy to resolve this...cut down the
plastic board used for back support within the seatback cushion.  It is
something I am recommending this fix in my next issue for those who want
to roll any of the Feathercrafts with a sweep, layback roll.
 
> I personally feel Doug Simpson, head of F-craft should try his hand at a
> Khatsalano Sport model with about a 20~21" beam and lower deck for
> easier layback.  Pick up some of the lost volume by adding another half
> foot or so in length - maybe split the bow float bag to fit around the
> bow keel frame to add more bow volume.  But keep it designed from the
> outset for paddlers in the 120~170 lb. range.  I have too many friends 
> in that weight range interested in my Khats but who feel the boat is on 
> the large side for them.  Any PaddleWisers want to add their two cents 
> to this - or challenge it?  I might forward the results on to Doug.

If you are forwarding requests to Doug ask him for me and a lot of
others to make a longer version of the K-Light.  The world is waiting
for a 15 foot K-Light.  It would blow the socks over any other
conventional folding single.  Adding two feet would still give us a 40
pound nice single for the way most of us paddle, i.e. not like Doug
(...Lloyd not Simpson) or Vince, the hurricane chasers respectively (and
respected) of the West and East Coasts :-)

Incidentally, at your weight and need for stability, you may want to opt
for the K-Light even at its present 13 foot length.  It is a speedy
enough boat, very agile and sporty feeling and accelerates well. 
Sometimes smaller paddlers actually can do better in a smaller boat than
a longer boat.  At least give it a try.

ralph
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From: "Andy Johnson"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Feathercraft Khatsalano, S and Expedition K1
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:21:31 -0800

Wendy,

I'm no expert but I have paddled both of these boats and own a 99 K1. I'm
just 4 inches taller than you and it fits me fine. It sounds to me like you
are a dry paddler on the whole, as am I. The Khatsalano is more the wet
paddler's boat. It sits lower in the water and you tend to get a good deal
wetter. It probably rolls easier that the K1 but I couldn't say. They are
both fast. If you are serious about being 2 weeks out and potentially in the
arctic it seems to me the K1 is the boat for you. If you go with the
Khatsalano I'd really recommend the S. I think you'd survive long days on
the water much less fatigued. I went through the same drill before I decided
and it took me nearly a year. Don't waste that kind of time. Get one of them
and start enjoying it.

Andy

C. Anderson Johnson



Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:09:49 -0800
From: ralph diaz 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathercraft Khatsalano, S and Expedition K1

Vince Dalrymple wrote:
> > Not so much the stability, Ralph, as getting used to a v-bottom hard
> > chine design.
> > Ken Fink "tested" me in the original Khats (and expected a quick
> > capsize, I think), and the trick was to not fight for a vertical rest
> > position, but to just let the craft settle over on a chine 'til getting
> > under way.

I have found that all of the Khats that I have tried out do that, the
prototype (then called the Kitsalano, which is the name of a section of
Vancouver named after a chieftain, Khatsalano), the plain Khats and the
Khats with the largest sponsons.  I found it absolutely disconcerting in
the Kits prototype and actually climbed out and got into a hardshell
rather than paddle it.  After 15 minutes, even the factory guy who was
in the Kits decided we should turn back from the rough conditions we
were beginning to enter.  The Khats family likes to fall over on to a
chine when you stop; in which direction depends on your skeletonal
structure I guess.  I bet a chiropractor could use having people sit in
a Khats to determine the natural alignment of their spine :-)

I have not attempted to roll a Khats but my understanding is that for
marginal rollers (Vince, I am not implying that you are :-)) it is a
more difficult boat to roll than would seem evident by its sleek look. 
My understanding also from Ken Fink is that you need to not rush the
roll in a foldable; he feels foldables move slower through their
rotation in a roll and you need to avoid getting out ahead of yourself. 
Let the boat come around and it will.

The K-Light is a delight to paddle, a nice mix of tracking and turning. 
I don't find it weathercocks.

> > Something I forgot to address in the last e-mail to Wendy (and list) is
> > the ease with which the K1 and esp. the K-Light set up due to their
> > simplicity, especially when compared to the Khatsalano, a boat which
> > wears me out just putting together (which explains it being on my car
> > rather than in it).

Amen.  The Khats takes a lot of assembly.  Just when you think you are
finished, you need to do the secondary or upper buttressing frame
insertions and connections.  The K-Light is fairly easy, although some
individual ones take somewhat more,  and the K-1 is vastly improved in
assembly time since the major revisions to that model in 1998.  The K-1
is usually the better choice for most paddlers than the Khats although
people do like and want to be associated with the looks of the latter. 
I have talked several paddlers out of opting for the Khats and instead
go for the K-1.  They thank me every time we meet.

ralph diaz
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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