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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:03:43 -0500
From: Kenneth Cooperstein 
Subject: [Paddlewise] Folbot Greenland II -- yes?

Folbot is about to have its annual one-day sale on 11/16.  GII's are
$1,395 and GII Expeditions are $1,795.  No shipping, no tax.

My wife and I  usually paddle our Sealutions.  I want the GII to take
along on my 23' sailboat so my wife & I have something to do when we get
there and can also get some exercise.  For utility, I will also bring
along my West inflatable [non-Kayak] boat with 3.5 hp outboard.

Is this the right boat?  Any recommendations?

Ken




Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 05:04:33 -0800
From: Dave Kruger 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folbot Greenland II -- yes?

I've owned a G II of the "Expedition" variety for somewhat over two years, and paddled it for a
one-week trip, one two-week trip, a handful of overnighters, and a half dozen day trips.  The G II
is a decent, serviceable double, and certainly a lot of boat for the money.  I have the Twins sail
rig Folbot sells, and have used it several times.

The G II is very stable, easy to assemble, very easy to load, and fast enough when paddled as a
double.  Sailing is easy and fun.

I've customized mine a little:  1. to lower my seating position,  2. to tighten up the spray deck
(sags some when wet),  and  3. to improve the rudder system.  The stock boat, however, is just
fine.  I think it would work well for the application you have in mind.

I'd strongly recommend the "Expedition" package -- you get paddles and a rudder system for cheap. 
The rudder is essential, especially if you intend to sail it.

Email me if you want more details on the outfitting I have done.

- -- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
(no affiliation with Folbot)

------------------------------





Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:18:44 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Opinions on double "foldables"?

MSN/RiDem wrote:

> Next year I am hoping to purchase a "foldable ", probably a double based on
> the following needs. Have been looking (on line) at the Klepper  Expedition
> II, or Folboat Greenland II. (and less likely Nautiraid Grand Raid 520). I
> have looked at M.Edelman's info page.
> Mostly I am seeking strong opinions, to weigh against my own still yet
> uninformed opinions. (I am a big fan of the dialectic!)

> Any suggestions, short of renting one of each and paddling one for a
> weekend? Price is not as much an issue, as  is ease of assembly,
> portability, durability, and maximum carrying capacity. We are moving away
> from a 17 foot canoe, and would have a LOT to learn, not only in packing
> gear in an enclosed space, but getting used to a double bladed paddle.

If money is no object, then I would think the Klepper Expedition double
would be the best choice of the two you are considering.  This is not to
knock the Folbot Greenland II.  It is an excellent boat and certainly
would do just fine in the situations you describe.  But the Klepper is a
better boat.  Folbot never claims to be building a boat as good as the
Klepper at a third of the price.  I have heard the company owner
acknowledge this, i.e. he has not discovered the secret of alchemy.  He
makes a boat that provides a lot of value for the money and backs it
with excellent customer service and lifetime warranty against breakage.
Folbots are improving all the time; witness the switch to an aluminum
coaming which is far superior to the plastic they used earlier and has
stiffened the boat considerably.

But the Klepper hull is of a better grade than that of the Folbot.  What
is more the hull has keelstripes protecting high wear areas; these
strips are 2.5 inch wide at the chines and 10 inches wide across the
bottom.

The frame is extremely strong with a lot of redundancy built in.

The Klepper is somewhat more streamlined and a faster boat.

Stated carrying capacity is higher in the Klepper by about 200 pounds.
If you go one grade higher and get the Quattro model, capacity goes up
to about 1,000 pounds.  The military load both the Expedition and
Quattro in excess of 1,000 and they do fine.

The available spraydeck for the Klepper is better than that on the
Folbot.  You have to look for the tuckunder version however to get the
best setup.

Klepper assembly is a bit faster than the Folbot but we are not talking
much difference.  I can do the Klepper double with a partner in 8
minutes (faster in race conditions), I couldn't do better than about 10
minutes with the Folbot.  Marginal difference granted.

Packing gear into a closed space.  If you set your mind to it, there are
ways of getting everything in via the cockpit.  There are a number of
hints in my book.  Basically, shove things in with a paddle half and
string tethers from the bags you shove furthest in, so you can retrieve
them latter.  Another trick is to take the Klepper long bag and fill it
about a third and push that end into the stern where it will go all the
way to the stern piece; then fill the next two thirds right from the
cockpit (the long bag is about the length of the rear compartment.

Please don't misinterprete me.  The Folbot is fine, it is just that the
Klepper is recognized as better.

A comparison I always use is that of tents.  A North Face is a top of
the line tent that is incredibly tough and heavy duty.  But Eureka also
makes fine tents that provide very good service.  The North Face just
happens to have thicker coatings, better cloth, tougher poles, better
sewing, better webbing straps, etc. Klepper is a North Face; Folbot a
Eureka.  The differences are not that of buying designer jeans for lots
of bucks when Levi's or Wrangler are just as good.

Again, I am working off of your comment about money not being an issue.
With me it is.  I couldn't justify to myself spending Klepper prices and
if I were in the market, I would gladly buy a Folbot Greenland II and,
from my considerable experience and knowledge, know that I would be very
happy with it.

ralph diaz
--




Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:46:49 -0700
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Opinions on double "foldables?"

No quarrel here with Ralph's comparison of Klepper and Folbot.

Just a small addendum to my earlier post:  The Greenland II is much easier to
pack than the Kleppers, I imagine (I have no personal experience with Klepper,
though I have watched companions pack them).  The reason is that the forward
and rear decks of the G II can be **unzipped** easily for packing while the
hull is fully assembled.  No strings or push-the-bag-in-with-a-paddle
folderol.  Allows for more efficient packing, also.

Even so, I imagine you would be using the spaces to the sides of both paddlers
for storage, whether in a G II or a Klepper (either of the versions Ralph
mentioned).

Ralph, maybe you should speak up about some of the Long Haul side storage bags
-- a real advantage for expedition-style stuff like the Dempseys do.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR




Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:53:41 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Opinions on double "foldables?"

Dave Kruger wrote:

> No quarrel here with Ralph's comparison of Klepper and Folbot.

I am happy about that.  Sometimes one puts a comparison of two models in
such a perspective as I did and then some people wind up saying that I
am trashing Folbot, which I never do.

> Just a small addendum to my earlier post:  The Greenland II is much easier to
> pack than the Kleppers, I imagine (I have no personal experience with Klepper,
> though I have watched companions pack them).  The reason is that the forward
> and rear decks of the G II can be **unzipped** easily for packing while the
> hull is fully assembled.  No strings or push-the-bag-in-with-a-paddle
> folderol.  Allows for more efficient packing, also.

That is certainly a positive element of the Folbot.  It aids in assembly
too.  If one absolutely wanted greater access to the decked areas of
Klepper, one could buy the double with zippered decks.  These are
offered both as a factory option and as an add on by the Klepper Repair
Service in Colorado.

> Even so, I imagine you would be using the spaces to the sides of both paddlers
> for storage, whether in a G II or a Klepper (either of the versions Ralph
> mentioned).
>
> Ralph, maybe you should speak up about some of the Long Haul side storage bags
> -- a real advantage for expedition-style stuff like the Dempseys do.

I am not certain what Long Haul (an offshoot of the Klepper Repair
Service in Colorado) is doing with bags of late.  I heard they dropped
the waterproof ones and are pointing people to some other supplier.  But
Long Haul does produce a range of sizes of cockpit bags with
non-waterproof zippers.  The bags clip on to cockpit crossribs and long
pieces and are placed right alongside you.  Very handy for things you
might need while underway such as a warm top or rain gear, if not using
a paddling jacket.  Also Voyageur dry bags and Gaia Dry Bags have straps
that will fit around the ribs and long pieces just like the cockpit
bags.  YOu generally run these alongside where your legs are.  You can
literally line the entire area of a Klepper or Folbot double with
cockpit bags (for access to things needed along the way) and strapped
dry bags (camping gear, food etc).  Between the cockpit area of these
doubles and all the available tie-ins there plus what you store fore and
aft, you can carry an enormous amount of stuff.  You can also sit on
Voyageur Bags like the Caboose and store clothing there.  Just let air
in or out as you wish to lower or raise your center of gravity.  Many
paddlers leave their seats and seatbacks at home and use bags to
substitute for them and add to their storage capacity.

ralph diaz
--





Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 00:06:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: Edwin Johnson
Subject: [Paddlewise] Folbot Greenland II ?

I've been reading the discussion and merits of the Feathercraft K-1, but
wonder if someone could comment on a comparison of an older Foldbot versus
the newer Greenland II.

My Foldbot is the two-seat Super which was bought in 1978. By this time
they had gone to the aluminum frame with wooden flooring and ribs. I have
enjoyed it for float trips in rivers near my location since buying it. But
reading about the newer Greenland II my appetite is whetted for a new
boat. Can anyone comment on handling differences and load capacity (read
camping equipment,etc.) between the two boats?

Thanks for any input.

...Edwin




Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 09:55:59 -0700
From: ralph diaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folbot Greenland II ?

The old Super was a more solid boat in terms of flex which made it a
somewhat better sailing kayak than the Greenland II.  Both models sail
better than the Klepper without so much a need for outriggers as the
Klepper really should have.  The Super could be harder to assemble as,
at the time, quality control of fit of skin to frame wasn't as top notch
as it is today.  It also is a heavier boat than the Greenland II by
quite a few pounds.  Very stable, though, not the the Greenland II is
unstable...it too is quite stable.

As to payloads, probably both are pretty close.  Any of the folding
doubles are good for 600 pounds at least and go up to about 1,000 pounds
for the Klepper military Quattro version.  Lack of sponsons in the Super
would likely give you a bit more space for items.

Handling differences?  The Greenland II is more nimble than the Super if
any folding double can be described as "nimble".  If you are enjoying
the  Super I would suggest not bothering to switch unless the weight and
assembly issue (if it is an issue with your particular Super) are a
problem.  If you feel a need for paddling solo a lot, get yourself a
single at some point.

best,

ralph
-- 

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