Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:57:51 EST
From: Gratytshrk
Subject: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

Hi all,
I am tired of all my junk getting smacked around inside my hull when i capsize
or go over big waves and I was wondering if anyone has found a way to place
some clips or something on the interior of their hull to restrain stuff.  I
was considering getting some stainless steel D rings and running some
fiberglass tape and epoxy through the I part.  Anyone got any suggestions or
recommendations?  If i have to pry one more bottle of sun tan lotion out of
the very tip of the stern I'll go nuts.
Thanks,
Robin Lovelock
P.S.-  77 deg. in Mobile Al.  



Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:11:44 EST
From: Blankibr
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

Try using equipment bags like mesh ditty bags.  No suggestion on tying down
but I put a "dummy cord" on everything so I don't loose it if I wet exit.

Brian



Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:46:33 -0500
From: "Bob Volin" 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

I just finished installing two under-deck bunjie cords for my wife's boat.
Took four pad-eyes, drilled holes for them.  The pad-eyes are beneath the
deck with bunjies tied to them.  They are held in place with 8-32 stainless
flathead machine bolts (1/2 inch will be just right for most decks).  Above
the deck, the flathead bolts are cradled in finishing (cup) washers.  This
protects the deck from strain from the bolt head while doubling as a neat
repository for the sealer that I used to seal the hole.  The bolts are
secured below with stop nuts.    Under the deck above the bunjies, I glued
some 1/4 inch neoprene padding to keep things from sliding too much and from
banging against the deck.    If she likes it, maybe I'll even do the same
for my boat.

Bob Volin



Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:45:30 -0800
From: Dave Kruger 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

Others have described ways of securing padeyes to the underside of the deck
using stainless hardware -- that works well.  I have a couple smallish
bungie cords secured that way which form a cradle for a knee tube.  The
tube runs from the front of the cockpit forward a foot or so.  The knee
tube is handy for stuff and keeps it dry and easy to yard out of the boat
as a unit when you go ashore.  I use two kinds of knee tubes.  The "large"
size is made of 4-inch thin-wall PVC pipe (used around here for drain
fields, mainly -- get the unperforated type).  You can glue an endcap on
one end and slide-fit another endcap on the end nearer to you.  The small
size is a commercial unit designed to hold a multi-piece breakdown flyrod. 
It has a screw-down, gasketed lid and is available in two sizes:  19 inches
and 15 inches overall length. they are called "Rod Guards" and are
manufactured by K.I.W.O.T.O., Inc.  I got mine at an industrial supply
store (welders use them to keep their unused **welding** rods dry), but a
better sporting good store should have them, also.

Works well for charts if they are laminated in plastic, and will hold
sunscreen, a Power Bar, etc.

Almost no entrapment hazard from the bungies -- too small to snare a foot.

- -- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR



Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:59:12 EST
From: WildConect
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

I have had success with the plastic D-rings with plate and using Marine Goop
to "glue" them in place under the deck in my cockpit of my Romany 16.  Put
four in and strung a piece of shock cord between them in an X pattern.  Store
my paddle float there when I don't need the space for a small dry bag with
personal first aid supplies, binoculars, camera and the like.  Did a similar
thing on the bulkhead behind my seat, only there I used three D-rings and
epoxied them in place.  Formed a triangle with shock cord.  Again, a good
place for the paddle float.  The trick to the upside down placement of the D-
rings in the cockpit was to hang the boat upside down at the proper level so I
could stand with my head inside the cockpit.  I pre-marked the position to
place the D-rings.  Roughed the surfaces with some sandpaper, cleaned them
well and applied the Goop to the plate and placed them, with D-ring in place,
on the marks.  I then covered the area with waxed paper and placed a nylon
water bag filled with warm water, over the waxed paper so as to apply even
pressure over the area.  Waited 24 hours for the Goop to setup, removed the
water bag, waxed paper and any excess Goop.  Strung the shockcord and lowered
the boat back down.

I've also Gooped in D-rings inside my hatches to attach my keys to as well as
to tether my hatch covers (they have tabs on the inside) to.

I've not had any problems with either the Gooped or epoxied D-rings, though an
engineer friend suggested the Goop would be more forgiving of the temperature
extremes that I paddle in as it is more flexible than epoxy.  I've also seen a
boat that instead of the plated D-ring, a D-ring was secured to the hull by a
piece of flat webbing being epoxied on both ends to the hull with the D-ring
in the middle of it.

I think these methods will work well on composite boats (fiberglass, kevlar)
but not sure about on plastic boats.  The trick is in the adhesive.

Good Luck.

John Browning
Milwaukee, WI
www.wildernessconnection.com



Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 00:04:00 PDT
From: (Doug Lloyd)
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

In my narrow kayak, I need to carry weight for day trips, as the boat is
designed to run with a load. I used one inch plastic D rings, glassed-in
with one inch wide strips of epoxied cloth, three inches long. I used
vasoline on the bottom rung of the ring so it would be free to swivel a bit
once the epoxy dried. Just prior to glassing in the four rings, I sewed 3/4
inch nylon webbing straps (about ten inches for each piece of strap) onto
each D ring, with a fastex buckle which joins the two ends. I used four D
rings, creating a pair of hold-down straps. They are eight inches apart
(each mating pair) and twenty inches apart in lenght to accomodate a gear
bag full of weight or hold down a dromadary bag (excuse spelling). The
ability to provide a secure hold-down is important for rolling, etc.
Whatever you do, just do it - don't be afraid to modify your boat, its the
American,errrr, North American way!

Doug Lloyd
Victoria BC ( 8 dergrees Celcius)



Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:05:36 -0500
From: Bill Leonhardt 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices


Dear Robin, et al,

I've asked this question before and we've pretty much come up with the same
approaches.  There may be an easier alternative (easier, I think, but at
least an alternative).

Currently, I am working on a project at work and I'm about to order a bunch
of mounting pads for nylon cable ties made by a company called Panduit.
They make one model designed to be attached by epoxy and even will supply
the epoxy.  I got some samples in for evaluation and was impressed at how
well the epoxy held (they claim 50 pounds and I can believe it).  I think
that getting the epoxy to stick to the inside of a fiberglass hull would be
no problem however I wouldn't expect it to bond well to polyethylene.  The
really surprising part is that the epoxy bonds so well to the mounting pad.

I can envision using the pad in different ways.  Once the pad is in place,
you could hook bungees with hook ends to the pads, or if this is too
difficult, you could install the cable ties, leave a loop and hook the
bungees to the loop.  You can see the pads, etc at page 83 of the on-line
catalog at:

	http://www.panduit.com/catalogs/en/sa101n275c-wc/index.stm

Naturally, I'm ordering a few "extras" at work to try on my boat but won't
get to try them until the temperature rises a bunch.

Panduit doesn't sell direct but I'm sure you can get these from a local
electrical supply house.  I have no affiliation with Panduit.

Good luck,  

Bill Leonhardt



Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:51:23 -0500
From: Michael Daly 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

WildConect wrote:

> I have had success with the plastic D-rings with plate and using Marine Goop
> to "glue" them in place under the deck in my cockpit of my Romany 16.

I've done similar.  I sewed the D-rings to a square of Cordura with webbing
(actually, two layers of Cordura).  I sew it so the rough surface of the Cordura
is on the opposite side from the D in order to give the glue lots of fuzzy bits
to stick to.  I used 3M 5200 as adhesive.  No problems so far.

Mike



Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:24:09 -0800
From: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

All of this talk about ways of tying stuff inside the hulls reminds me
of variations that can be used in folding kayaks.

In most folding kayaks, there is generally enough room around you to
sides where you can place bags.  A number of sources sell special
zippereed bags that can fit in those areas alongside your hips or legs. 
Among sources are Baidarka and Long Haul Products.  The former sells 2
sizes of Kaipaks meant for use in either the Nautiraid or Kleppers. 
When in doubt, choose the Klepper size.  The second company makes a
variety of cockpit bags including one that is totally waterproof,
rugged, and comes with a metal waterproof zipper.

The bags have straps in their upper corners, which are fastened to the
closest ribs.  They tuck in nicely out of the way and zip open to access
quite a lot of gear.  In broader boats like the Klepper singles, the
bags prove real handy as hip pads to give you some measure of hip
control of your boat in turns.

(BTW, in the broader folding kayaks, you can carry tons of camping gear
around you using all that space between the ribs in the cockpit area. 
You don't need special bags.  All you do is strap it to the gunwales and
other long pieces alongside the inside of the boats.  Plain webbing
straps, the kind you to tie sleeping bags and sleeping mats to back
packs work well enough especially ones with snap fastex closures.  By
utilizing the space around you, which is basically the center of the
boat, you have a neutral effect on overall trim.)  

In folding kayaks that have a tighter fit, particularly the Feathercraft
K-Light, you don't have much space for attaching anything close to your
hips.  But, you can use the top deck bar in front of you to attach any
of these bags.  The best, for my money (and it is expensive $80) is the
Waterproof Cockpit bag from Long Haul Products.  The easiest way to
attach is to just attach the far end strap of the bag to the top bar and
slide the bag in and out as you enter and leave the boat. (The strap
acts like a shower curtain ring on a rod.)  Same for accessing its
contents.  Just pull on the unattached end and bring the whole bag into
the cockpit on to your lap.  There you can open it wide and take out
stuff.

Long Haul Products I think has a website now.  Its phone number has
changed.  Can't seem to find it at the moment.  If you need it, email me
and I will look for it.

ralph diaz
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:27:02 -0500
From: Bob Denton 
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

I installed a couple of strips of webbing with velcro to the rear bulkhead
behind the seat which holds a rolled up paddle float. I uses ss washers,
bolts and nuts.

cya



Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:07:03 +0000
From: asaarto
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

Has anyone tried embedding/laminating small waterproof tanks inside the hull, 
under the deck, just front of the cockpit? I saw a one here, made of fiberglass 
with a tight waterproof hatch, diameter of 4 inches and lenght of maybe 15 
inches. One could easily keep money, GSM  etc. there. 

Sincerelly, I was not impressed aesthetically. But it seems  to be 
suitable for my weekend bottle of Isla Negra red ;-)

Ari - Finland
(0 degrees Centigrades here - just waiting the ice to break an dit is January. 
Maybe miracles do really happen...)



Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:26:28 -0600
From: CHUCK
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

I also carry my paddle float on the bulkhead behind the seat, but I made
my fittings on my workbench and then epoxied them to the bulkhead. The
fittings are made by draping fiberglass cloth over a piece of narrow
tubing from a tent pole and wetting it with epoxy resin. A sheet of
plastic is laid over everything and pieces of 2-by-4 are placed on either   
side of the tubing to flatten the fiberglass cloth and give it a smooth
finish. When the resin has cured, I cut the assembly into 3/4-inch
segments, trim the excess resin, and file any rough spots.

After epoxying four of these fittings to the bulkhead, I thread narrow-
diameter bungie cords through pairs of the fittings and knot the ends to
hold them in place. The paddle float is held against the bulkhead by the
bungies, where it is out of the way but accessible.

A major virtue of these fittings is that they have low profiles. I also
use them to tether my hatch covers inside the compartments, for which I
use a length of nylon cord knotted at the end and a plastic D-ring
fastened to the underside of the rubber hatch cover. The D-ring is held
in place by a piece of sheet rubber, which I glued to the hatch cover
using Aqua-Seal.

I have also made fittings for nylon straps from brass rods, but I think
I will go into that another day.

Chuck Holst



Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:53:53 EST
From: JCMARTIN43@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

Sounds a lot like the standard knee tube that a lot of Brit boats have
'glassed in, Ari, but I've never heard of a water-tight one!  Most are open at
the aft end --- where the paddler sits --- for easy access to whatever is
needed.  Possibly including GSM, whatever that is.  Sounds like an interesting
variation.

Jack Martin



Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:21:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Barbara Kossy 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

All these under deck tie down ideas sound great, but I'm concerned about the
possibility of  foot entrapment. Also, ease of re-entry at sea. Some folks
around here use deck bags that go on top of the deck, not below. I keep
necessities  behind my seat in a small dry bag tethered on a short cord with
a brass release. 
Barbara
San Francisco Bay Area



Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:09:22 -0600
From: Chris & Leslie Arceneaux 
Subject: [Paddlewise] cargo restraints

Robin, locate some lightweight webbing from the custom shops that serve the
pickup truck after market. I'm sure it can be modified along with some
small brass hooks to lock down your stuff. CA



Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:07:01 -0800
From: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

schroete
 
> Yes and there is another place most people don't think of: Take a
> waterproof bag as your seat (but strap it to the sides or ribs of
> your boat for the case you have to leave your boat up side down).
> Especially in folding doubles you normally want to sit much higher,
> than the seats are, you got with your boat.  But also in most singles
> you are in the need to have some space between your and the boats
> bottom.

I am glad you brought up the idea of sitting on bags that substitute for
seats on long camping trips. It is a good place to put soft stuff...you
would not want to be sitting on pots and pans!!! :-)

The best kind of bag to use under you is one with an air bleed valve or
better yet an inflate/deflate tube.  This way you can puff up the bag if
sea conditions are calm or deflate in rough conditions to lower your
center of gravity.  When I wrote about this in my folding kayak book,
the Voyageur Caboose bag was a good choice for a combo seat/dry storage
bag because of being waterproof and having an inflate/deflate tube. 
There are other bags on the market that do this to a degree now.
   
> But it makes sense to use waterproof bags. Most camping gear does not
> like to stay wet for longer periods especially in salty water. 

Absolutely.  Again this advice to protect everything is in the Camping
chapter in my book and I am glad you brought it up.  When I said no need
for special bags, I meant no need for those zipped bags used to hold
things for use during the day's trip.  Any bags used for camping gear
must be of the dry bag variety.  I have seen more than one set of
aluminum tent poles corroded beyond use because kayakers thought that
they would be immune to water exposure and just dropped them somewhere
in their cargo compartments.  So I protect them in a dry bag as well.

Same goes for sleeping pads, even those that are covered with waterproof
material and stuffed with insulation that will absorb little water, if
any.  They do remain wet to the touch for long periods.  I have been
around more than one kayak camper who thought he did not have to protect
his sleeping pad. It got soaked and, arriving at the campsite late in
the day, did not provide enough time or sunlight to dry.  Poor guy had a
miserable night.  No it wasn't me!  :-)

The only minor exception of sorts that I make is that I do have some dry
bags that aren't as well sealed as I hoped when I bought them or have
lost perfection over the years.  I will place cooking gear in them...so
the contents are somewhat protected but failure would at worse be just a
minor disaster.

ralph diaz
 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:33:56 -0500
From: Bob Denton 
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

I agree with Barbara. Once you've tried a few re-entries you'll rip those
underdeck bungies right out!

cya



Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:23:46 -0500
From: Bob Denton 
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

I was looking in some German catalogs last night and saw a boat with a knee
tube which had a small VCP hatch cover on it. Neat idea!

There are a bunch of very interesting ideas on German boats including:

1. Rudders that retract into the stern of the boat from underneath, like a
skeg
2. Integral rudder pedals that mount on a central keel track with a
centrally mounted foot pump.
3. Zip up hatches
4. Hatched sealed with an inflatable gasket. A small pump comes with the
boat.
5. Nets instead of bungee in the deck area
6. Low prices (really good feature) on Glass, Kevlar, Carbon /Kevlar

cya



Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:07:37 -0500
From: Michael Daly 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

rdiaz@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>  I have seen more than one set of
> aluminum tent poles corroded beyond use because kayakers thought that
> they would be immune to water exposure and just dropped them somewhere
> in their cargo compartments.  So I protect them in a dry bag as well.

This is more of a problem for salt water paddlers.  Us Great Lakes folks
get away with not protecting this stuff since corrosion of aluminum in fresh water
is negligible.  I've used carabiners on my boats without problem until the
first time I paddled on the Atlantic - one corroded to the point it wouldn't open
easily within a few days!

> They do remain wet to the touch for long periods.  I have been
> around more than one kayak camper who thought he did not have to protect
> his sleeping pad. It got soaked and, arriving at the campsite late in
> the day, did not provide enough time or sunlight to dry.  Poor guy had a
> miserable night.  No it wasn't me!  :-)

Again a bit more of a problem in sea water.  Since the salt is a tad hydrophilic,
stuff never completely dries.  I never protect my sleeping pad, though I'm always
telling myself to do something about it one of these days.  Your points are well
taken, Ralph.

Mike



Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:57:10 +0200
From: schroete
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

Ralph Diaz wrote:

> In most folding kayaks, there is generally enough room around you to
> sides where you can place bags.

Yes and there is another place most people don't think of: Take a 
waterproof bag as your seat (but strap it to the sides or ribs of 
your boat for the case you have to leave your boat up side down). 
Especially in folding doubles you normally want to sit much higher, 
than the seats are, you got with your boat.  But also in most singles 
you are in the need to have some space between your and the boats 
bottom.

> (BTW, in the broader folding kayaks, you can carry tons of camping
> gear around you using all that space between the ribs in the cockpit
> area. You don't need special bags.  All you do is strap it to the
> gunwales and other long pieces alongside the inside of the boats. 
> Plain webbing straps, the kind you to tie sleeping bags and sleeping
> mats to back packs work well enough especially ones with snap fastex
> closures.  By utilizing the space around you, which is basically the
> center of the boat, you have a neutral effect on overall trim.)  

But it makes sense to use waterproof bags. Most camping gear does not 
like to stay wet for longer periods especially in salty water. And 
there is another reason to use bags: Watertight bags strapped to the 
boat have a lot of air inside and are additional flotation devices. 
Those bags are normally not airtight, but the air gets out much slower 
than the time you need to re-enter your boat.

BTW.: I produce my watertight bags at home, using PVC-foil. Bags are 
easily glued and/or welded, costs are minimal (I use rests [? my 
English is not the best] from a small factory) and I can make them 
fitting exactly to my several boats.

Rainer Schröter, Marburg, Germany



Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 09:49:04 -0600
From: Ira  Adams 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

>I fully agree that leaving lines of various types hanging loose in the 
>cockpit is asking for trouble.

I'm sure this is true, but I am recalling one occasion when I found it 
difficult to get out of my cockpit (on landing) because some loose gear 
had shifted down around my feet while paddling. Had I been upside down at 
the time, that might have been a panic moment!

Having loose stuff in the cockpit may be as hazardous as having lines to 
hold things in place.

Ira  Adams



Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:19:16 EST
From: Tomckayak
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] inner hull tie devices

In a message dated 1/22/99 1:51:29 PM EST, mikedaly writes:

<<  I usually use a Fastex buckle in the middle of the
 webbing.  This arrangement is easily removed when not in use.
  >>
Not if you are swimming in northwest waters with bare hands and tying to get
back in to your kayak. Cold hands make squessing a Fasttex, to open it, an
ordeal.