From: Craig Olson
Subject: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:55:03 -0800

Hi Folks,

'Very glad to be a part of this new list.  Kudos to the list-owners for conceiving a
spam-free semi-moderated list without commercial contributions.  Thank you!!

I've been an avid sea kayaker for several years and am more or less continually
working to improve my skills, technique & gear.  My latest kayak gear project has
been to modify my cockpit for better comfort & performance.  I usually paddle a
Current Designs Solstice GT, but the procedure should work (with enough fiddling
around) for virtually any boat.  

I enjoyed the article in Feb '98 Sea Kayaker magazine which included instructions
for building a custom seat, hip & knee braces out of gray minicell foam,
self-adhesive foam and speaker grill fabric.  The author happens to live only a few
miles away, so I paid him a visit to get some more detailed info.  Yesterday I
"sculpted" the seat bottom & installed the back band.  Today I carved the hip braces
and will start on the knee braces as soon as I have more time.  Total cost for the
materials including a $45 back band was about $112, but you could probably do better
with a little shopping around.

'Haven't tried it out on the water yet, but I already have a very good feeling about
this.  The boat is *very* comfortable - not surprising since the "butt dimples"  :-)
 were carved to fit yours truly, and overall I sense a much better contact between
my body & the boat at 3 key areas - butt, hips, and knees/thighs.  All told, I've
spent about 8 hours on it so far and anticipate about that much again before it's
completed.  The old seat in my boat was an absolute bear to remove, due primarily to
some incredibly effective adhesive they used to glue the bottom in place at 3
locations.  I had hoped to remove the seat in one piece, in case I wanted to put it
back in but I actually had to cut it into pieces to get the thing out.

Ken, the author and local paddle guru, says "you won't believe what it'll do for
your paddling!"  I can't confirm that yet (give me a couple weeks) but, so far so
good!

Anybody here have experience with this?  Stories to tell?

Craig Olson
Bellingham, Washington




From: dldecker
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:08:07 -0500
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications



I had talked to Nigel Foster about a seat and his opinion was to get a bag
of  plaster of paris a garbage bag,mix it and pour in the bag and sit on
it. It will take a impression of your perfect seat.Every dimple etc.
Then when dry clean and smooth. Wax and apply fiberglass cloth and resin to
form a mold. then smooth any thing and wax and lay up a seat. Needless to
say it is a perfect fit and I never had to use padding again, just the
perfect seat. I have built four kayaks and used the seat in each with the
same results. It only fits me but I am selfish and don't care. It is the
BEST seat available period. My opinion of course and I am associated with
my seat.

Dana




From: Craig Olson
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:52:23 -0800


Brutally cool, Dana.  There's something utterly satisfying about carving "butt
dimples" when the butt in question is mine!  You know, like, the hell with *your*
butt!  Thanks for your plaster of Paris idea, too.  I might try that in my spare
boat, but not until I get this "foam art" thing happening.

Craig Olson
Bellingham, Washington


From: Jim Champoux 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:26:10 +0300

>Dana Decker wrote:
>> I had talked to Nigel Foster about a seat and his opinion was to get a bag
>> of  plaster of paris a garbage bag,mix it and pour in the bag and sit on
etc..

Hey would 2 part foam in a garbage bag work? seems it would require less
sit time. hmmm. The garbage bag probably wouldnt come off...maybe sprayed
with silicone or something?


Jim Champoux





From: Doug Barnard 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:47:16 -0800


Be careful! Chemical reactions like this usually give off some heat. Foam
is about the hardest thing to get off that I know about, so be sure to
drape and tarp and mask to the best of your ability.

Though it would be pretty funny to watch someone running around
frantically, with a hot garbage bag full of foam stuck to their butt! Can I
watch you try?

Maybe some old long underware with plastic worn underneath? Won't it be all
wrinkly from the garbage bag?



________________________________________________________________
Doug Barnard                               Virtual Acreage
Agoura, California (near L.A.)        Visualization in 2D/3D/4D
http://www.iswest.net/~dbarnard             818-991-9328
                                          



From: John Winters
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:01:07 -0500


The plaster method is the one that many boat builders use and probably why
their seats fit some people really well and others so poorly. One of the
problems with the foam method suggested is that the foam gets bloody hot
and you can get some rather severe burns to delicate parts if you sit down
on it while it is curing. Also it doesn't really foam uniformly. I
recommend you stay away from the foam. When I did the plaster method, I
wore a tight fitting swim suit and smeared it with Vaseline. It worked
nicely but you have to be somewhat careful not to put all your weight on it
while it is curing because  your butt will flatten out a bit in you will
get too much contact around your ischeal tuberosities (Spelling?). The way
the experts do it is to build a seat with thousands of  pressure sensors.
They measure the pressure all over the seat and then adjust the seat to
reduce local pressures that might cause discomfort.

Two years ago I worked on a racing canoe for paraplegics. These guys really
know about seats.  

If you are interested in the world's most comfortable seat, hie yourself
down to one of those stores that specializes in devices for the
handicapped. They may have one of the air filled gismos that is used by
wheel chair athletes (looks like a bunch of black peanuts on end stuck to a
pad) Talk about heaven! They are expensive. There are foam alternatives
made by some small companies that are close to being as good but less
expensive. They mix and match different foam densities to get the proper
support for all your parts. (Your butt is a complicated thing when you hear
the experts talk about it). 


Cheers
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/




From: wayne steffens 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:16:04 -0600


 I havent caught this whole thread so excuuuuuuse me if I'm repeating
something. Rubber Rope in Watersmeet MI makes some dandy foam products
which Ive seen people use for removeable/adjustible cockpit fitting. Glue
some velcro strips on the cockpit and shaped foam, and they go in and out
as needed, and no flaming butts involved The foam comes in 3-4 inch thick
planks. I havent custom fitted my seat, but i use a slab of it in front of
my bulkhead in lieau of footpegs.


Wayne




From: Jim Champoux 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:52:06 +0300
doug barnard wrote...

>Be careful! Chemical reactions like this usually give off some heat. Foam
>is about the hardest thing to get off that I know about, so be sure to
>drape and tarp and mask to the best of your ability.

It is *very* sticky. BTW have you ever seen those pre-packaged packing
things which are essentially a sealed plastic bag with A and B vials
inside. You crack 'em and throw the bag into a shipping box, place the
to-be-shipped item on top, then crack another one and toss it on top, then
tape the box closed? apparently they have the quantity/expansion/box size
thing worked out.
>
>Though it would be pretty funny to watch someone running around
>frantically, with a hot garbage bag full of foam stuck to their butt!

I think your right, I think I would stay away from that crack filling stuff.

>
>Can I watch you try?
I dont think so.. but I think John Winters mentioned something about a
bathing suit and Vaseleine...John, were they Speedos?..and...hey wait a
minute, this didnt have anything to do with the "Charlene" incident did it?


>Maybe some old long underware with plastic worn underneath? Won't it be all
>wrinkly from the garbage bag?

yeah..I think the plaster idea is better....


Jim Champoux




From: John Winters
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Modifications
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:49:57 -0500


Jim wrote;

(SNIP)

> I dont think so.. but I think John Winters mentioned something about a
> bathing suit and Vaseleine...John, were they Speedos?..and...hey wait a
> minute, this didnt have anything to do with the "Charlene" incident did
it?

Don't recall what kind of swimming trunks. Must have been cheap though.
Keep in mind that plaster gets hot too and you need something down there
besides Vaseline. 

I used the same technique in making and canoe yoke mold. Used burlap to
reinforce the plaster.

I met Charlene before my plaster episode. Not sure how she would have
reacted to that. She never liked my sailing friends so I doubt if her sense
of humor could have coped with watching me cure.


Cheers
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/ 




From: K. Whilden
Subject: [Paddlewise] custom foam outfitting
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:04:05 -0800 (PST)

On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Jackie Fenton wrote:

> 
> Hello PaddleWiser friends,
> 
> We've had lots of new subscribers signing up in the middle of some very
> interesting discussions (I've wondered what goes through a new subscriber's
> mind when he/she joins up in the middle of a discussion that reads...
> "Though it would be pretty funny to watch someone running around frantically, 
> with a hot garbage bag full of foam stuck to their butt! Can I watch you try?")
> 
> :-)

Hrmm, seems like I have done exactly what Jackie mentioned above. Come
into the middle of a discussion of molding foam to make a perfect fit. 
This is a good topic, and I may have some information of more than
humorous benefit. 

 Turns out that my little rodeo boat has exactly this kind of outfitting,
and I think it is wonderful. I had it professionally done by Mark Tennant
of in the Seattle area, who has a small side business foam fitting boats. 
He calls his product Fusion Sport Systems. If you live nearby and want an
outstanding and comfortable fit, I suggest giving him a call. He charges
$85 for the full wrap-around seat and thigh braces, and he gives a 30-day
satisfaction guarantee. The foam has a nice thin covering of neoprene that
adds durability and grip. Mark has adapted his technique from his days of
making ski orthotics. 

 This is a product that I have no qualms about endorcing, because it works
so well, and because I am such a fanatic about people having a secure fit
in their boat. The process takes about an hour. The end result is a full
wrap-around your butt from hip to hip that fits absolutely perfectly, and
also secure grips around your knees/thighs. I think there are a lot of
paddlers out there who would be amazed how much of a difference this makes
regarding stability in rough water and when leaning turns. 

 The Feb Sea Kayaker magazine has an excellent article on cockpit
customizing with minicell foam. I suggest everyone read this if you don't
live in the PNW or want to spend the least amount of money. However these
methods are much more work, and I think it would be pretty tough to get a
fit as good as the Fusion Systems.

 Note, I did NOT get any foam stuck to my august person during the
process. Mark has worked out those kinks, but you might wish to ask him
personally how much hair/skin he has lost during prototyping.

 Mark Tennant's number is (425) 746-0323. 

Happy outfitting!

Kevin




Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:52:16 -0500
From: Kurt Wisner
Subject: [Paddlewise] Softer Seat?

This relates back to the plaster garbage bag/flaming gel thread. My
scrawny privates always seem to wear out much sooner than my muscles or
my enthusiasm.
	A company on the GORP gear page, Planetary Gear in Boulder Colorado (I
am NOT affiliated) advertises a product called the "Banshee Kayak Flow
Seat". They also have one for canoes. It appears to be a vinyl bag
filled with a liquid gel and supposedly relieves hot spots and hard
spots because it conforms to each individual. If this thing works, you
could have your comfort without the "guilt" of your yak not fitting
anyone else.
	I have considered ordering one (they're only about $26), but figured
I'd check here to see if anyone has experience with this or a similar
product.
	. . . or maybe SPAM in a zip-loc bag ;^)?
	
Kurt



Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:34:20 -0800
From: Doug Barnard 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Softer Seat?


At 12:52 PM 1/31/98 , Kurt Wisner wrote:
>This relates back to the plaster garbage bag/flaming gel thread. My
>scrawny privates always seem to wear out much sooner than my muscles or
>my enthusiasm.

Then don't sit on 'em! <snort>

>	A company on the GORP gear page, Planetary Gear in Boulder Colorado (I
>am NOT affiliated) advertises a product called the "Banshee Kayak Flow
>Seat". They also have one for canoes. It appears to be a vinyl bag
>filled with a liquid gel and supposedly relieves hot spots and hard
>spots because it conforms to each individual. If this thing works, you
>could have your comfort without the "guilt" of your yak not fitting
>anyone else.
>	I have considered ordering one (they're only about $26), but figured
>I'd check here to see if anyone has experience with this or a similar
>product.

They sort of work. After a while, you're sitting on not too much, as all of
the gel migrates away. You still need some sort of cushioning underneath.
The seat does have a solid, connected feel. They look nice, and are washable.

I wouldn't spend my last $26 on one, but I don't consider it a bad
purchase. My legs still cramp up and go numb on long crossings, however.


________________________________________________________________
Doug Barnard                                   Virtual Acreage
Agoura, California (near L.A.)        Visualization in 2D/3D/4D
http://virtualacreage.com                    818-991-9328




From: Rich Kulawiec 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] custom foam outfitting
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 11:33:36 -0500 (EST)

> Note, I did NOT get any foam stuck to my august person during the
>process. Mark has worked out those kinks, but you might wish to ask him
>personally how much hair/skin he has lost during prototyping.

<Chuckle>  I've lost a little bit myself, since I accidentally acquired
a small reputation for being able to glue 'n carve minicell foam
into appropriate shapes in whitewater boats.  But I can now use the
excuse that any cognitive breakdowns I might exhibit are due to
inhalation of too much HydroGrip in confined spaces. :-)

Seriously, thought, I'd like to reinforce one of your points: having
a boat that fits makes all the difference in the world.  I had a heck
of a time with my first boat, a Hydra Mustang, until a very nice person
helped me outfit it appropriately.  The change was amazing.  Now I always
tell people that they should wear their boat, not sit in it.

---Rsk




From: Craig Olson
Subject: [Paddlewise] Custom Cockpit update
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:37:21 -0800


A couple weeks ago I started a thread about using 3" minicell foam to custom-outfit
a kayak cockpit for comfort & performance.  Well, my cockpit is finally finished and
I must say that it's a vast improvement over the "off-the-shelf" model.

I followed instructions from Ken Rassmussen via the Feb '98 issue of Sea Kayaker
magazine & sculpted a foam seat, hip braces & knee braces.  After a day trip I
noticed that the seat wasn't quite right, so I got out the Stanley Shur-form Shaver
& dragon skin to shave down the trouble spots.  Then I spent some time rolling at a
pool session & decided the knee dimples needed to be deeper.  Again - a half hour of
sculpting did the job.

Now, the whole thing fits like a glove and is extremely comfortable.  I feel it was
well worth the money and time required.  One thing I would suggest - different from
Ken's instructions - is to take the boat out for a paddle, at least a couple hours,
to try things out before gluing in the fabric over the seat.  I had to rip the
fabric off to reshape the seat.  You just can't tell if it's a good fit by sitting
on it in the garage.

A paddling friend of mine, Dan Hagen,  also had a good idea.  Instead of gluing the
seat down, use some heavy-duty Velcro so that the seat can be easily moved to adjust
the trim of the boat.  Hip braces prevent lateral movement and the back band & foot
pegs prevent any forward or reverse movement, so I think the Velcro would be sturdy
enough to do the job, and it would be nice to be able to easily adjust the boat's
trim for best performance in a changing sea state.

Craig Olson
Bellingham, Washington




From: Bob Denton
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:38:24 -5
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Custom Cockpit update


How critical is seat placement? I just replaced the seat in a Falcon 
16 and the handling is now terrible...it no longer tracks properly. I 
have adjusted the seat an inch forward but it's too cold to get 
near the water (65F) to test it.

Will an inch make any difference or should I be trying larger 
increments?

Thanks


Bob Denton
Vice President 
Undersea Breathing Systems
http://www.dnax.com




Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:07:59 -0800
From: Dave Kruger 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Custom Cockpit update

Bob Denton wrote:
(SNIP)

Ah, 65 F water -- last time I was in/on water that warm, I was in my
bathtub! <grin>

> Will an inch make any difference or should I be trying larger
> increments?

An inch can make a substantial difference -- remember, the paddler is by
far the largest load increment in a yak.  To see the effect of moving a
180 lb paddler's body an inch fore or aft, try a 10 lb weight 18 inches
fore or aft of the CG of the system.  A bag of lead shot is a good way
to find how much/which way to move the seat.  The CG is probably pretty
much directly under the center of your butt, when you are in the yak.

Mariner (in Seattle) makes yaks with seats which can be moved an inch or
two fore or aft to get the trim you need.  With a custom seat
installation, you can achieve pretty much the same effect if you use
Velcro to fix the seat in place, per comments Craig Olson made the other
day.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR




From: dldecker
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:27:18 -0500
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Custom Cockpit update


Be care full of velcroing your seat if the bottom is real flexible. One
kayak I built had a flexing bottom and when I inched over a log my seat
came loose and reattached a second later in a slightly different place
which was very uncomfortable I could pull over to replace it correctly.
Other than that I would and do velcro all my seats so I can adjust to the
load. I Used the Heavy duty 2 inch self adhesive and still used contact
cement. If you don't use marine, or heavy duty velcro it does not seem to
stick together very well when wet. my 2 cents

Dana




From: Bob Denton
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:29:09 -5
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Custom Cockpit update


> Ah, 65 F water -- last time I was in/on water that warm, I was in my
> bathtub! <grin>

That is the air temperature...the ocean is 72F..

> An inch can make a substantial difference -- remember, the paddler is by
> far the largest load increment in a yak.  To see the effect of moving a
> 180 lb paddler's body an inch fore or aft, try a 10 lb weight 18 inches
> fore or aft of the CG of the system.  A bag of lead shot is a good way
> to find how much/which way to move the seat.  The CG is probably pretty
> much directly under the center of your butt, when you are in the yak.

This is not a foam seat, but an upgraded ABS seat from Eddyline. I 
have the option to place it within a 5 inch "window".

Bob Denton
Vice President 
Undersea Breathing Systems
http://www.dnax.com



From: Craig Olson
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Custom Cockpit update
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:56:07 -0800


 Bob Denton wrote: 
> How critical is seat placement? I just replaced the seat in a Falcon 
> 16 and the handling is now terrible...it no longer tracks properly. I 
> have adjusted the seat an inch forward but it's too cold to get 
> near the water (65F) to test it.
> Will an inch make any difference or should I be trying larger 
> increments?

Yes, an inch will make a substantial difference on boat trim and handling
characteristics.  I would suggest moving it in smaller increments, say 1/2" or less
at a time & then paddle to evaluate the effect.

Craig Olson
Bellingham, Washington




From: Bob Denton
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:53:12 -5
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Custom Cockpit update


I wonder how many boats that don't handle well are the results of an 
incorrectly placed seat?

Bob Denton
Vice President 
Undersea Breathing Systems
http://www.dnax.com




From: Mark Zen 
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:51:59 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Custom Cockpit update
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List
X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request@lists.intelenet.net

On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Bob Denton wrote:

>>
>>I wonder how many boats that don't handle well are the results of an 
>>incorrectly placed seat?

quite a few, in my observations... makes a big difference in canoes as
well.  many RMCC members take advantage of the winter pool sessions to
outfit their boats. bring pieces of foam, sculpted seats, etc, and a
grease pencil, then check for trim. move stuff around. works well. and of
course it's social!! putting it in the water [as others have mentioned] is
the true test, especially with plastic boats, where the hull may change
shape when on the water [doesn't happen near as much with glass boats ;-]

mark

#------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com--------------------------------------
mark zen                      o,    o__              o_/|   o_.
po box 474                   [/     [\/              [\_|   [\_\
ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----')      (`----|-------\-')
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@~~~~~~~@~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@~~~~~~~~@~~~~~
http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr   [Colorado Paddlers' Resource]  
http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club]  
http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc  [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] 
http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark  [personal]
--




From: John Winters
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Custom Cockpit update
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 06:33:07 -0500


Bob wrote,

> 
> How critical is seat placement? I just replaced the seat in a Falcon 
> 16 and the handling is now terrible...it no longer tracks properly. I 
> have adjusted the seat an inch forward but it's too cold to get 
> near the water (65F) to test it.
> 
> Will an inch make any difference or should I be trying larger 
> increments?

When you replaced the seat did you move it aft? If so, what happened to the
handling. Usually moving weight aft makes the boat track better but
maneuverability suffers. How much you have to shift weight depends upon the
boat's shape. Some boats are very sensitive to weight placement - some are
not.


Cheers
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/



From: Bob Denton
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:33:05 -5
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Custom Cockpit update


I believe the seat moved aft but it seemed to make the boat "wander". 
The tracking of this boat was exceptional for it's size (16 feet). 
The design of the old and new seat is different enough to make it a 
guestimation process.

I hope to get some time on Sunday to play with the seat placement.

> When you replaced the seat did you move it aft? If so, what happened to the
> handling. Usually moving weight aft makes the boat track better but
> maneuverability suffers. How much you have to shift weight depends upon the
> boat's shape. Some boats are very sensitive to weight placement - some are
> not.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> John Winters

Bob Denton
Vice President 
Undersea Breathing Systems
http://www.dnax.com




Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:29:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Kirk Olsen
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Custom Cockpit update


On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Bob Denton wrote:

> I believe the seat moved aft but it seemed to make the boat "wander". 
> The tracking of this boat was exceptional for it's size (16 feet). 
> The design of the old and new seat is different enough to make it a 
> guestimation process.

>From my time in a marathon flatwater canoe, a boat with no rocker...

A bow heavy boat will tend to start out okay and then suddenly turn.

A stern heavy boat will tend to wander and require more corrective
strokes.

Like everything, the more extreme the weight differential the worse
the effect.  I would expect less dramatic handling effects in a boat
with more rocker.

kirk




From: Mark Zen 
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:54:34 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Custom Cockpit update

On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Kirk Olsen wrote:

>>Like everything, the more extreme the weight differential the worse
>>the effect.  I would expect less dramatic handling effects in a boat
>>with more rocker.
>>
>>kirk
>>

more dramatic!! a paddling partner and i demonstrated a jam turn in a
tandem whitewater canoe, and then demonstrated the wet exit immediately
afterwards ;-) and there was only 20 pounds [9Kg] difference between us,
though that puts the occupants a stone over 185Kg [no i won't convert that
to USEnglish 8-)}

this really isn't true... i do believe [and the boat designers out there
should really answer] you are correct. it also depends on how narrow the
entry line, and other factors, but generally, the white water boat will
slide more that a flat keeled boat. i out weigh my wife by a lot, and am
the stronger paddler, so by one token i should be in the front, and by the
other, i should be in the rear. when i am in the bow, if we initiate a
turn, man are we going... ready or not.

mark

#------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com--------------------------------------
mark zen                      o,    o__              o_/|   o_.
po box 474                   [/     [\/              [\_|   [\_\
ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----')      (`----|-------\-')
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@~~~~~~~@~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~@~~~~~~~~@~~~~~




Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:18:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Kirk Olsen
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Custom Cockpit update

On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Mark Zen wrote:

> more dramatic!!

You are quite right.  I meant unintentional handling characteristics.  

> a paddling partner and i demonstrated a jam turn in a
> tandem whitewater canoe, and then demonstrated the wet exit immediately
> afterwards ;-) and there was only 20 pounds [9Kg] difference between us,

Ah, but if you had kept the boat upright the "class" would have learned
less ;-) 

> i out weigh my wife by a lot, and am
> the stronger paddler, so by one token i should be in the front, and by the
> other, i should be in the rear. when i am in the bow, if we initiate a
> turn, man are we going... ready or not.

Sure you're going to turn wonderfully, but how easy will it be to stop 
turning, assuming you still have some momentum....  Gotta love those
"power spins" that won't stop until you perform a counter stroke or the
boat stops moving (forward, backward, and sideways).

kirk