PaddleWise Discussion on Landing a Victim Through the Surf
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:14:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Julio MacWilliams
Subject: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
Scenario:
The victim is hypothermic after capsizing several times
in his brand new tipy boat. He should not have joined the trip with
his level of skill. But now, it is the group's mission to land the
victim to safety through dumping surf.
The best thing to do is to turn on the radio and call the Coast Guard
so that they come and take the victim in their boat.
BUT, let us assume that any help is outside of radio range, and the only
option left is landing the victim ASAP.
What would you do? (not a rethoric question, I really want to know
your ideas)
My aproach would be to tie a line to the stern of the victim's kayak
and send a good paddler with the other end to the beach. Then I would
tie another long line to the bow of the victim.
rescuer at sea---line---~~~victim in surf~~~---line---rescuer in beach
The job of the rescuer at sea is to keep the victim's kayak perpendicular
to the waves. The job of the rescuer on the beach is to watch for the
right set of waves to pull the victim to the beach.
If the victim can not brace, then I might be possible to do the same
thing without the kayak, but giving the victim additional flotation
to hang on to. However, the victim is already hypothermic.
I know this scenario is one of those without a good solution, that
is why I am presenting it to the safety conscious people in this list.
Comments, please?
- - Julio
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:42:46 -0500
From: "Sisler, Clyde"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
> rescuer at sea---line---~~~victim in surf~~~---line---rescuer in beach
That could be a very long line. If it doesn't stretch that far, bring the
beach guy back out and shepard the victim in, one on either side of him.
His/her job is simply to keep the 3 boats rafted.
I don't have any practical experience and more than likely would be the
guy in the middle.
The fastest way in might be to just let him dump again and let the surf
take him in :-). Been there, done that. Not in any homongous surf though.
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:13:53 EST
From: JCMARTIN43@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
Interesting scenario, Julio. Have been watching a few of the early comments,
and they're all interesting.
To the question of calling the Coast Guard to pull the guy out --- unless
you're right off a manned USCG station, it's going to take them a while to get
there. (From my experience flying SAR missions with them, it's going to take
a while.) And victims don't get less hypothermic with time --- they
get worse, and they get worse faster with time. Don't think anyone's
commented on that issue yet, but getting the USCG out there is
probably not going to be viable in most instances. You've gotta get this guy
onto the beach fast.
But you don't really have to worry about his boat. If he's, in fact,
hypothermic --- irrational, uncontrolled shaking, unable to help himself ---
his boat may now be his worst enemy. can't take care of it, and another
paddler or two trying to raft up with him is only going to complicate the
issue, especially in dumping surf. You get two guys on either side of him ---
and I'll assume that nobody in the group is really experienced in surf rescues
- --- and somebody's going to be wearing somebody else's kayak pretty soon.
>From my experience, there's no way you're going to safely land two or three
rafted boats in dumping surf, especially when one of these folks is totally
incapacitated.
Without thinking further, my reaction would be to get most of the group onto
the beach fast, and then get the hypothermic paddler out of his boat and send
him in with another swimmer --- hopefully with a solid paddlefloat or some
other solid flotation device in addition to the PFD. No long lines --- no
short lines. Or somebody's going to be wearing around their necks,
too. The paddlers on the beach help the swimmer when he gets the victim in
close, once he's through the impact zone. One last paddler stays with the
empty boats and sends them in on their own later, when the area is clear.
My thoughts.
Jack Martin
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:33:50 -0800 (PST)
From: "K. Whilden"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
Julio,
My intial reaction to your scenario is how long are the lines that you
typically carry? I use a 50 foot line for towing, which is a good
length for this purpose. I do not carry anything longer. With two 50 foot
lines, then chances are that the two rescuers in your proposed solution
would also be in the surf, which would make it rather impossible for the
rescuers to do anything but watch out for their own necks.
Even if the lines were long enough to permit the rescuers to stay outside
of the surf zone, I think it would folly of the highest degree to attempt
to hold on to a rope which is also attached to a sea kayak being surfed by
a wave. Can you imagine the forces? Worst case scenario is having your arm
ripped out of your socket.
One possible solution to this scenario would be to use a sea anchor or
drogue to keep the paddle facing perpindicular to the waves while he is
backing in towards shore. I personally would not want to take the pounding
that this would produce in dumping surf, but it might be better than
having the hypotherminc person swim to shore. Of course, given your
scenario, a swim is probably likely in any case. This person is probably
in big trouble.
Of course, the cop-out answer to your scenario is simply "don't get into
this situation in the first place". I would be quite careful of taking
anyonewith questionable skills into an area with dumping surf.
Hope this helps,
Kevin
___________________
/ Kevin Whilden \
|Dept. of Geosciences \___
|University of Washington \
|kwhilden@u.washington.edu|
\________________________/
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:36:45 -0600
From: Patrick Maun
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
What about a contact tow with the victim holding onto your bow? This might
offer a more stable approach through the surf.
Any problems with this?
Patrick Maun
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:41:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "K. Whilden"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
In my opinion, having two or more adjacent kayaks landing together in
close proximity through dumping surf is a TERRIBLE idea. Sea kayaks are
very difficult to control in the surf, and almost always turn immediately
into a broach. The forces incorporated into a surfing sea kayak are
tremendous. If the victim and rescuer(s) are caught by the same wave, then
chances of a brutal collision are very high. I think that this would put
the rescuer AND rescuee into greater danger than before, which is a
cardinal sin in any kind of rescue.
Cheers,
kevin
___________________
/ Kevin Whilden \
|Dept. of Geosciences \___
|University of Washington \
|kwhilden@u.washington.edu|
\________________________/
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:55:16 -0800 (PST)
From: "K. Whilden"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
I should add that I really like Jack's scenario below. A couple of
improvements would be to copy what lifeguards do to rescue incapacitated
swimmers through surf. Do they use those orange bouys, or do they
physically hold onto the swimmer? I never did junior lifeguards, so I have
no idea, although I might guess that they use both depending on the state
of the swimmer and the surf. Are there any beach lifeguards on this list?
One other idea is that it might work to send strong swimmers back out to
bring in the abandoned kayaks once the rescue is completed. This depends
on the swimmers and the surf.
Good scenario, Jack!
- - KW
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:03:12 -0800
From: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
Jack's thoughts seem to be the most practical. All that talk of lines
to and fro and rafted up paddlers coming through surf sounded screwy and
dangerous. In the first idea, using lines fore and aft, the hypothermic
guy in his tippy boat would not able to keep his boat upright and would
wind up spinning like that old game of spinning a button on a line.
Rafted boats would collide, shoulders would get wrenched trying to hold
boats together, hands and fingers broken, etc.
The only other possible solution, assuming that the whole situation
started outside the surf zone would be to transfer the guy to a more
stable boat. Then someone, a swimmer, would hang on to the back of the
boat as a sea anchor guiding it in through the surf letting every wave
push them both closer to the beach. Yes, some paddlers going in earlier
would be there to help the last few yards. The virtue of this approach
with the hypothermic paddler is that it keeps him in the boat and out of
the cold water which would only make his hypothermia worsen.
My understanding from some military stuff I have heard is that in real
rough Australian surf, Aussie military teams in double folding kayaks
will have one of the team members become a swimmer and hang on to the
rear of the boat to act as that sea anchor or rudder. This technique
slows progress into the beach and keeps the boat from broaching. (The
military rudder has a handhold cut into it that is lined with rubber
just so the swimmer can do precisely that.) Now this normally has the
remaining team member who is in the boat doing some propelling, bracing,
ruddering etc with his paddle. But in the emergency situation posited
by Julio just getting the victim to be a lump in the boat would probably
be good enough.
Joe Weight who paddled a double folding kayak solo from Grenada to
Puerto Rico would regularly swim his loaded kayak in that way when he
faced surf he was concerned about navigating. So it is a fairly well
tried out technique. (In exiting through real rough stuff, he would tie
the boat to himself and tow it out.) In his case and in the case of the
Aussie military all carried swim fins (it's part of their job
description). So much more control and power could be applied during
the swim in with the boat using fins. I guess in the group facing
Julio's emergency, the person in the group with the biggest feet should
be designated the swimmer. :-)
ralph diaz
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:17:16 EST
From: JCMARTIN43@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
In a message dated 98-11-05 17:01:33 EST, kwhilden@u.washington.edu writes:
<<
One other idea is that it might work to send strong swimmers back out to
bring in the abandoned kayaks once the rescue is completed. This depends
on the swimmers and the surf. >>
I'd be very careful with that idea, I think. The boats' cockpits will have
filled up by then --- I hope Julio's rules were that only bulkheaded composite
boats or plastic boats with bulkheads flotation bags could be used ---
and are going to be very heavy. An onshore breeze and the surf will bring
them in eventually. A swimmer will have a lot of trouble controlling a
flooded boat, and could get into serious problems trying. I think I'd send
the fastest guys out running to a phone or the nearest Bay Watch stand, and
I'd put the other slower, fatter warmer guys in a plastic body bag with the
victim to try to stablilize or reverse his temperature drop.
I'm also very interested in hearing what the surf lifeguards would do. With a
kayaker, you've got a little more to get a grip on than with a swimmer. (And
Julio's rules , of course, include helmets, right?) The collision
factor, even with a rescuer and a non-cooperative rescuee --- who could be
combative by now, depending how many times we've whopped him upside the head
with a paddle trying to get him upright again --- would be a real dangerous
situation for an average sea kayaker.
Jack Martin
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 16:37:28 -0600
From: John Somers
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
>on Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Sisler, Clyde wrote:
>> > That could be a very long line. If it doesn't stretch that far, bringthe
>> beach guy back out and shepard the victim in, one on either side of him.
>> His/her job is simply to keep the 3 boats rafted.
>>
At 01:41 PM 11/5/98 -0800, Kevin wrote:
>In my opinion, having two or more adjacent kayaks landing together in
>close proximity through dumping surf is a TERRIBLE idea. Sea kayaks are
>very difficult to control in the surf, and almost always turn immediately
>into a broach. The forces incorporated into a surfing sea kayak are
>tremendous. If the victim and rescuer(s) are caught by the same wave, then
>chances of a brutal collision are very high. I think that this would put
>the rescuer AND rescuee into greater danger than before, which is a
>cardinal sin in any kind of rescue.
Both have stated valid concerns, and there are others. But it seems to me
that a lot depends on what level of surf we're dealing with, as well as
what level of incapacitation of the victim. What may work in 2-3 foot
dumpers won't necessarily work in 4-8 foot or larger surf. That's why
trying it out for real and practicing it will help develop the paddlers'
judgment required to know the difference and to assess the situation when
it confronts us.
Wish someone will tell us what they've actually tried, along with a very
complete description of the conditions and resulting observations. I
recall Steph Dutton describing in Sea Kayaker magazine his use of a drogue
to counter broaching, and then backing into the beach through some really
big breakers, both solo and with two boats linked by a towline. But that
was not with a hypothermic or unconscious paddler.
May everybody's surfing be intentional,
or at least fun!
John
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 16:36:45 -0700
From: Mark Zen
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
At 11:14 05-11-98 -0800, Julio MacWilliams wrote:
[snip]
>
> rescuer at sea---line---~~~victim in surf~~~---line---rescuer in beach
boat --- rope --- neck --- rope --- boat
====
|
|
|
O
=
^
/|\
|
^
/ \
>
>Comments, please?
>
[snip]
strangulation, waiting to happen. guy tips over boat fills, and rolls, spinning the
rope that was yanked out of the other's hands, and wrapping it around the victim's
neck, and he either gets a broken neck, or strangles??
ropes are dangerous around moving water...
mark
[sorry, no solutions off the top of my head, this doesn't happen where i sea kayak!!]
#------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com--------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 98 14:00:51 PST
From: Glyn Dickson
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
Julio,
Great scenario. We were in a similar position a couple of years back.
After breaking through a small surf in fog, we found that the swell had
come up overnight and we had waves up to 6-8 feet breaking on two
outlying bars. Out of the 8 paddlers, 3 were capsized and swam, one
capsized and rolled, and I rolled under one big ugly one that was about
to break right on top of me.
After getting back together in the fog we headed away. A while late
one of the group became sea sick. Following some discussion two of
us towed him. He wnated to be anywhere but in the boat, and we
ended up doing a recce at the next beach up. Despite the large surf,
there were very clear rip channels where we could have towed him in
with negligible surf. We elected to carry on to get slack water at a tide
race, and then landed in comparative shelter around an hour later.
Even though it was summer and warm, he ended up mildly hypothermic
which because of our paddling and the temperature surprised us (not
always easy to put yourself in the victim's position). We all lived to tell
the tale, but it was a major learning experience.
In terms of landing a victim through surf... I have always found that in
big surf, rip channels etc become better formed as all that water has to
flow out somewhere. The only way to see them clearly however is to be
on the beach, and perferably up above it. You may be surprised how
often there is an easy approach where it may be possible to tow in.
Consequently you would need to scout the beach first, or have
someone there to guide you in.
If there is no easy way in, I would certainly never attempt to tow or raft
up. In fact the thought of this gives me the shudders as even small surf
turns kayaks into lethal projectiles! In large dumping surf even a strong
swimmer could be in difficulty, and bouyant items (people swimming
with PFD's) are more likely to be caught in a breaking waves and
tumbled. Some of the highly surf skilled people I know never ever
where PFD's while surf paddling for this very reason. There's only one
relatively safe place in the break zone, and that's deep underwater!
I would place the odds high trying to swim in the incapacitated
person could drown them. Lifeguards tend to use an overgrown surf
board or surf ski (assuming of course you don't carry an inflatable
rubber ducky and outboard motor with you in your kayak..) so they can
deck-carry the swimmer in, and allow the wave's force to carry them in.
So if possible to carry them in on the stern deck of one boat, I guess
that would be my preferred option (more shuddering!).
Yep, great scenario, and fascinating responses!
Glyn Dickson
Auckland
Paddling Perfection New Zealand
Finest Quality Handcrafted Kayaks
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:48:29 EST
From: KiAyker
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
OK, I need to add my two cents to this discussion. First of all, as several
others have said, lines in the surf are a really bad idea. I instruct people
to disconnect their paddle leashes when coming through the surf. Forget the
tow ropes. Likewise, rafting up and coming in through the surf is just asking
to compound the problem.
As I see it, the victim is hypothermic and needs to get to shore now! If I
thought I could coach the person in through the surf, then I would come in
with them (at a safe distance beside them) and bring them in that way. At the
very least I could get them close enough to shore to where they could walk in
the rest of the way after they capsized, or someone else could wade out and
get them, or I could exit my boat and bring them in.
If they were too far gone that I didn't believe they could paddle, then I
think the next option would be to have them climb out of their boat and lie on
my back deck, arms around my waist with their feet apart and in the water for
stability. I believe I could land a person through all but the hairiest of
surf in this fashion. At the very least I could get them close enough to shore
so that if I did lose it and capsize I could exit my boat and swim (walk?) the
victim the rest of the way in. Trying to tow the victim in while they are in
the water holding onto your grabloop I do not see to be a viable option. What
happens when they lose their grip while you are hurdling towards shore on a
wave? How long will the swimmer be left alone while you try and turn around
and go back to get them?
If the person is really that hypothermic then what happened to the boats
would be the least of my concerns. Besides, it's a funny thing about the surf
- - everything usually ends up on the sand eventually. I believe I could
withstand the short swim without having to worry about also becoming
hypothermic, at least until I was on the shore and better able to deal with
it.
Scott
So.Cal.
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:49:17 -0500
From: Greg Stamer
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
My initial reaction was that I would have the victim swim to shore with a
support team on the beach assisted by a strong swimmer in the water. Some
of the responses on this thread have been very thought-provoking.
Carrying a swimmer on the aft deck, with a hold on your waist might be a
good solution depending on your circumstances but my belief is that the
victim would probably not hang on long in violent surf. I usually side-surf
the kayak to the beach in rough surf and this would leave the victim
struggling to hold on and possibly getting hit by the paddle should they
pivot around perpendicular to the keel. Perhaps keeping the bow to the surf
and landing backwards would be a better approach, but sooner or later the
boat will broach. As someone else has noted, even if the victim falls off,
they would at least be closer to shore than if they had started swimming.
If you successfully arrive near the beach carrying the victim, I would
prefer to have the victim drop off and swim the remaining yards to the
beach rather than risk the kayak injuring the victim upon landing (the
kayak could roll or entrap a limb while sliding up the beach).
Ralph's idea of putting the victim in a stable boat and having a strong
swimmer guide them to shore has merit. As an enhancement, I would place a
paddlefloat over each end of the victim's paddle blades outside of the surf
zone. If the victim has enough strength and dexterity to hold the paddle,
this might add to the chance of success.
Greg Stamer
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:59:32 -0500
From: "Lorraine&Dennis"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
From: KiAyker
> . Forget the
>tow ropes. Likewise, rafting up and coming in through the surf is just asking
>to compound the problem.
I agree with this. Tow lines(especially short ones or contact tows) are just
bombs waiting to be lit by the next big breaker.
>I think the next option would be to have them climb out of their boat and lie on
>my back deck, arms around my waist with their feet apart and in the water for
>stability.
This sounds reasonable. I presume that a couple of competent paddlers would
land and be there to assist the landing if needed. Question. Once the person
gets on the back of your boat and the two of you proceed on/in one boat-what
happens with the empty boat? Others in the group should be diligent in
removing potential debris(boats,paddles)from slamming you if you are
underway with a swimmer on your back deck.
Speaking of the others-a scenario such as this sometimes starts the domino
effect. Those with skills sufficient to land in the surf but not with
practiced surf rescue skills are beyond their comfort level when faced with
stopping and dealing with a capsize/problem. This can often multiply the
number of problems/capsizes/rescues.
Great scenario.
Great discussion.
Thanks.
Dennis
Sunny New Hampshire
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 06:20:38 -0500
From: "John Winters"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
Ralph wrote;
- --(SNIP)
>The only other possible solution, assuming that the whole situation
>started outside the surf zone would be to transfer the guy to a more
>stable boat. Then someone, a swimmer, would hang on to the back of the
>boat as a sea anchor guiding it in through the surf letting every wave
>push them both closer to the beach. Yes, some paddlers going in earlier
>would be there to help the last few yards. The virtue of this approach
>with the hypothermic paddler is that it keeps him in the boat and out of
>the cold water which would only make his hypothermia worsen.
>
(SNIP)
Using the body as a sea anchor worked for me (did it by accident and on
purpose) although I found the sea anchor worked better. The thing that I
found most disconcerting about this was when I tried doing it with regular
hand toggles on the ends. If the boat tried to spin (and it did sometimes)
ones hand got wound up in the handle. Very painful if you don't let go
quickly enough.
I now use the trapeze handles used by sailors fastened to the boat with
stainless steel cable. These rotate freely so won't jam the hands.
If you have a rudder on the boat you will want to grab the bow rather than
the stern as you drift in. Rudders can cause serious injury when near your
head. Also, the tails on most handles lack length to trail clear of the
rudder.
Cheers,
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:20:23 EST
From: JCMARTIN43@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
In a message dated 98-11-06 08:52:44 EST, gstamer writes:
<<
Ralph's idea of putting the victim in a stable boat and having a strong
swimmer guide them to shore has merit. As an enhancement, I would place a
paddlefloat over each end of the victim's paddle blades outside of the surf
zone. If the victim has enough strength and dexterity to hold the paddle,
this might add to the chance of success. >>
Greg's idea is one of the most interesting additions yet. Dual flotation on
the paddle!
But it also shows that we all have been refining Julio's original scenario a
bit. Since it was his idea --- and an excellent one --- maybe he could define
some ranges for us to think about. Like, what's "dumping surf" --- to my
mind, the stuff I have to deal with on our mid-Atlantic beaches, three to four
foot, very short periodic waves that break very close to the beach. In our
scenario, is that what we're thinking? Bigger?
What's the water and air temperature --- not to set off a sub-thread on what
gear is needed and when, , but just to set the scene? How is the
victim dressed, and how does his personal gear compare to the others in the
group?
And, most importantly, hypothermic is the victim right now? Is he in
mild hypothermia, where he's reasonably coherent and rational, but is shaking
and not as coordinated as he probably should be to make his own landing in
surf, stabilized or not? Is his body temperature dropping --- I know we can't
tell, but is he moderately hypothermic, with a definite loss of coordination,
orientation and mental stability? Or is he approaching severe hypothermia,
where he may be only semi-conscious or even unconscious? How bad is he now
- --- 'cause he's not going to get better but will definitely get worse until we
can get him out of his cold, wet environment and into a rewarming situation of
some sort.
Which begs another issue which I tried to introduce yesterday, hoping someone
with more competence in hypothermia would jump on --- but what are we going to
do with this guy when we do get him on the beach? This could be any or all of
us, and at least one of "us" in this paddling group ought to know and to have
equipment --- not in the boat that we left 50 meters
offshore when we swam him ashore --- to help our friend survive. Do we carry
a survival "body bag" in a bailout kit? Is at least one of "us" in this
paddling group competent to help our buddy once we get him out of the water?
Does somebody have CPR training? And if the answer is no, what does that say
about the trip? And the leader?
Just other things to think about as we try to get this guy out of whatever
"worst case" scenario we've defined for him.
Jack Martin
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:43:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Kirk Olsen
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, K. Whilden wrote:
> I should add that I really like Jack's scenario below. A couple of
> improvements would be to copy what lifeguards do to rescue incapacitated
> swimmers through surf. Do they use those orange bouys, or do they
> physically hold onto the swimmer?
Around here there tend to be 3 choices of equipment for the life guards,
a double handled "torpedo", an oversized flotation belt with a short (roughly
3 foot) tow rope with shoulder loop, and an overstuffed surfboard.
In dumping waves I would probably chose the retrieval belt. The harness
loop goes over the rescuers shoulder and the flotation belt goes around the
swimmers chest, the swimmer then gets towed in backwards. With the short
tow rope you get to keep the swimmer away from you.
Lifeguards want to avoid getting in grabbing range of the
swimmer. The standard ingrained mantra is "reach, row, throw, go".
kirk
long ago a life guard
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:43:58 EST
From: JCMARTIN43@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
In a message dated 98-11-06 10:34:44 EST, kolsen@imagelan.com writes:
<< Around here there tend to be 3 choices of equipment for the life guards,
a double handled "torpedo", an oversized flotation belt with a short (roughly
3 foot) tow rope with shoulder loop, and an overstuffed surfboard.
In dumping waves I would probably chose the retrieval belt. The harness
loop goes over the rescuers shoulder and the flotation belt goes around the
swimmers chest, the swimmer then gets towed in backwards. With the short
tow rope you get to keep the swimmer away from you. >>
Can you translate the above into what an average sea kayaking group can best
do with equipment at hand --- and that's probably not more than a paddlefloat
or two and maybe a contact tow line --- to get this guy to the beach, Kirk?
How does what he's wearing --- a PFD, maybe a neoprene farmer john and a
helmet --- influence what a lifeguard would do? Given what our group probably
has to work with, and assuming the surf was too big and the victim too weak to
effect his own landing in any reasonable safety --- both to himself and to
others --- how do we adapt your surf lifeguard techniques and equipment to
save this guy's life?
Jack Martin
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 10:58:45 -0800
From: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
I was once on a July Manhattan circumnavigation when on the narrow part
of the East River (between Manhattan and Roosevelt Island) we got hit
with a horrendous summer lightning storm with winds in excess of 40
miles an hour and visibility dropped to about 25 feet in the large
stinging hail and torrential rains.
We fell into two large pods of rafted up kayaks, joining in whatever
position we were at the moment, as the 4 knot current propelled us along
Manhattan's seawall. I attached to one of these pods facing backwards.
I noticed that one fellow in a double Klepper fearful for his life (we
all were, what with the lightning and zero visibility in narrow waters
in which large vessels were seen plying through just moments before the
storm hit) took out two paddle floats and placed one on each blade.
That Klepper became one of the most stable boats ever at that point.
I have often thought of that move by him when I am not having nightmares
about the predicament we were in.
(After the storm blow by, the seawall service road became alive with
police cars and ambulances searching for us and two harbor patrol
vessels appeared. Pedestrians had seen our 20 boat group on the water
as the storm hit and placed frentic 911 calls. Rescue people were
certain that a disaster had occured among the kayakers. We were all
fine except for being soaking wet and a bit bruised by the hail stones.)
ralph diaz
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:53:32 -0800
From: Philip Torrens skerries@hotmail.com
Subject: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
Scott wrote:
>If they were too far gone that I didn't believe they could paddle, then I
>think the next option would be to have them climb out of their boat and lie on
>my back deck, arms around my waist with their feet apart and in the water for
>stability. I believe I could land a person through all but the hairiest of
>surf in this fashion. At the very least I could get them close enough to shore
>so that if I did lose it and capsize I could exit my boat and swim (walk?) the
>victim the rest of the way in.
Prior to a three-week paddle trip this summer with two friends, we all
practised various self- and group rescues together. My two companions are
experienced paddlers in their own right, and have a good sense of how a
kayak needs to balance. One of the methods we played with was the "victim
on the rear deck" rescue. Admittedly my boat was unladen and therefore
tippier than it would be while touring, but I was struck by just how
unstable the "victim" made my boat, even with their torso pressed to the
deck. And this was in calmish water. Of course, this may simply reflect my
limitations as a paddler.
The prospect of bringing someone in through surf this way does not fill me
with delight. I'd be concerned the additional weight at the back would
cause the boat to broach very easily. (Although I suppose their legs
dragging in the water might act as "sea anchors", reducing the broaching
effect.) While I'm comfortable side-surfing with a brace, my head is above
water much of the time. Anyone with their body pressed to the rear deck is
going to have their head underwater a lot of the time - perhaps the whole
way into the beach - in even moderate waves. Ugly enough if you were in
good shape to begin with - utterly brutal if you were in bad shape from
cold. Then too, once you do start to side-surf, you are committed until the
wave lets you go - you can't back off while your passenger takes a breath.
So that leaves paddling in with them on your rear deck, with the boat
facing out to sea. While I like playing in the surf, I find being surfed
backwards down the face of a wave is a very out-of-control, scary feeling.
And all that weight on the rear deck would make it far harder not to be
surfed backwards.
So, what I am left with? One possibility would be to inflate my Sea-Seat
(I'd use a paddle float if I didn't have this). Just outside the surf zone,
my passenger and I would get out of our boats, and swim far enough to one
side that we wouldn't mix it up with the kayaks in the surf zone. Then we'd
join arms across the floatation and try to ride through the surf as quickly
as possible. This idea assumes a few things:
That the victim is still able to assist at least moderately in their own
rescue.
That they are prepared to enter the water.
That the beach is big, rock-free and gradual enough that we and the boats
are likely to get in intact.
That I really would be noble enough to abandon, however temporarily, a
perfectly good boat.
Great scenario, very thought-provoking, no easy and certain solution.
Cheers,
Philip T.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:26:27 -0600
From: (Chuck Holst)
Subject: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through s
This has been an enlightening discussion. I don't have enough surf
experience to add anything useful except to concur that having a
passenger on the rear deck makes a kayak feel very unstable. My wife
and I played with this rescue technique in the pool last winter after
reading about it in _Deep Trouble_, and found that it made a very
good bracing exercise!
Chuck Holst
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:00:21 -0500
From: "Dan Volker"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
If you were faced with really terrible surf to enter, your best way in would
be with a good mask, fins and snorkel---I'm not saying it would always be
fun, but 12 footers are not much challenge in this manner---and this is easy
to store as emergency or fun to use type gear. As fas as dragging a nearly
unconscious person wth you, I'd do this with mask and fins LONG before I'd
try it on a kayak. The fins need to be very tight fitting so the breaking
waves can't yank them off, and the mask should be a low volume free diving
type, such as a cressi superochio, or an esclapez or Omer freeding mask
about $45 for the mask)...fins should be easy to get on fast, if emergency
use is your primary reason for them. My choice would be full foot freediving
fins, since they are most efficient and can be worn barefoot or with socks.
If you wear some type of kayak type water proof shoe, several open heel fins
could be pulled on over your shoes, but the strapping system on the open
heel fin would need to be very secure and strong. A snorkel will make
swimming in surf easy--breathing will be easy---if you don't have
snorkelling shills, buy an Impulse by U.S Divers---it is a snorkel that
stAys dry and requires no knowledge of snorkel clearing.
Regards,
Dan Volker
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:08:48 -0600
From: Larry Snow
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
Great thread, but way too civil, so here goes....
Assuming you're outside the surf zone, would this be a case where you could
deploy (dare I say it) sponsons on the victim's boat and maybe a sea anchor
to keep it straight before trying to land? This might help in cases where
the victim is so far gone that he can't keep his boat upright and/or you
don't dare let him go into the water. Are there limits on the size of surf
where this might work, and what would a surf landing with sponsons deployed
be like?
Larry
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:21:35 -0900
From: David Seng
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
Jack,
One cautionary note - trying to handle a person through surf (breaking
waves over three feet tall) can be quite difficult if you are not a
_strong_ swimmer and practiced in life guarding skills. This is a good
one to practice with a friend on a day with some good waves on a soft
sandy beach. The old rescue adage always applies - don't create another
victim..... Most of the people that I have paddled with were better
paddlers than they were swimmers.
As far as flotation for the victim - I think that a person wearing a
PFD has plenty of flotation (from the swimming rescuer's point of view),
but there may be instances where extra flotation could be beneficial.
If the victim is hypothermic yet somewhat functional it would be very
helpful to have them hold onto an inflated paddle float, but if the
hypothermic victim is unconcious or unable to handle simple motor tasks
then the rescuer is going to have to support the victim. This is where
some of the lifeguard's tools really work well, but it might be hard to
find effective substitutes among normal paddling gear. I think that I
would simply rely on the flotation provided by my PFD rather than trying
to hold onto both the unconscious victim and a flotation device.
Another thought that I had about this idea of swimming the victim in is
that the direct exposure to the water is going to accelerate the
hypothermic reactions making it even more critical to begin quick and
effective treatment of the symptoms once on shore.
A very thought-provoking scenario....thanks Julio!
Dave Seng
Juneau, Alaska
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:20:16 -0800
From: "John C. Winskill"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf
Julio;
If the swimmer is in the water do a swimmer rescue and surf/broach the
boat in (rolling with a swimmer on your back deck is not too hard
providing they hang on and keep their weight low).
A drouge is the best idea. I'd be hard pressed to get out of (and
desert) my boat and be a drouge for somone else except for dire
circumstances.
Depending on the extent of the injury it's possible to have the injured
person hang on to the coaming of their boat and be pulled in as their
boat is broached in.
John Winskill
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:22:53 -0500
From: "Byron Lawrence"
Subject: [Paddlewise] Paddling Through Surf
My $.02:
One small issue for those who have suggested using fins to get in...If you
do have to get out of the boat and do any maneuvering, fins will make a huge
difference (. I would definitely want ones that go over booties so that once
you get to shore, your feet will have some protection. (A few of the newer
fins have quick release buckles so you don't have to crawl up the beach, out
of the surf before prying off tight fin straps.)
Thanks for the great discussion and contributions...quite enlightening for
us "newbies."
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:26:03 -0500
From: Dan McCarty
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddling Through Surf
This is an interesting but very depressing scenario....
So far it seems that no matter what one does, the ColdOne is not going to have
an easy time and is going to get worse. None of the ideas seems to have a good
chance of getting the ColdOne on the beach without getting wet and thus
Colder. To get the victim to shore someone/victim is going to deliberately get
out of a kayak or they stand a good chance of being forced out into an
environment that will worsen their condition. Yikes.
Someone had better be on the beach ready to warm the ColdOne and rescuer(s)
either with a large fire and/or tent/sleeping bag.
Gulp, I guess another way to look at this, the glass being half full, is that
if nothing is done the ColdOne is almost certainly dead. So, while we don't
want the rescuer(s) becoming a victim(s), if nothing is done, ColdOne is a
gonner. They ain't going to get warm sitting in the kayak! Eventually they
will become unconscious and then what? Gulp.
Seems to me, while we are trying to figure out the BEST/SAFEST/QUICKEST way to
get ColdOne on shore, are we not in CPR mode? If someone stops breathing they
are dead. If one starts CPR you might break ribs, puncture lungs, etc. But
they are already dead and if you don't do SOMETHING they will remain dead.
There might be a better technique or approach, which we are collectively
pondering, but unless something is done the victim is not going to make it.
While we don't have a perfect or even close to perfect solution but even an
imperfect solution is better than the alternative... 8-(
If ColdOne stays on the water death is not far away not only to the first
victim but will the conditions that got ColdOne get others in the group? Is
staying on the water an option? Does not seem so. To make this worse, what to
do if the conditions in the surf are so bad that landing the party will cause
more casualties? Would it be better to raft the group up and try to get warm
clothes around the victim? Could a sleeping bag be removed from a hatch to
stuffed around the victim? If the surf is being kicked up by a storm front
passing through, maybe it would be best to wait to see if the conditions
improve. How long to wait? 8-) I have seen storm fronts move through making
horrible conditions but within an hour everything is perfectly calm.
Seems like I have gone full circle here! Maybe waiting is the thing to do.
But if conditions are not going to improve or they are going to get worse, then
there is nothing to do but get the victim ashore knowing that things are bad
and are going to get worse for the ColdOne and maybe others...... 8-(
Have at it!
Dan McCarty
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:55:42 -0800
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
Dan Volker wrote:
>
> If you were faced with really terrible surf to enter, your best way in would
> be with a good mask, fins and snorkel---I'm not saying it would always be
> fun, but 12 footers are not much challenge in this manner---and this is easy
> to store as emergency or fun to use type gear. As fas as dragging a nearly
> unconscious person wth you, I'd do this with mask and fins LONG before I'd
> try it on a kayak.
[snip]
This has been a great thread, and Dan's suggestion seems the one I'd feel most comfortable with.
His method dispenses with the boat(s) -- which I think are an invitation to serious injury if the
victim is incapacitated, *even slightly.*
I have one caveat: negotiating large surf is not something to be attempted for the first time with
a victim. Dan must have a lot of experience with big stuff, based on the detail in his answer.
(Eons ago I did a lot of body surfing with fins, etc., in largish stuff.) Others have emphasized
that serious lifeguarding skills are needed to assist a "dead weight" through surf. I'm sure Dan
agrees with that, also.
Those contemplating adding fins, mask, and snorkel to their rescue kit should build in a hundred
hours or so of *focused* use under "battlefield" conditions. Even six-foot surf can really
disorient newcomers -- fins and mask, or not.
Thanks to Julio for starting this.
- --
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:52:14 EST
From: JCMARTIN43@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddling Through Surf
In a message dated 98-11-06 18:39:56 EST, dmccarty writes:
<<
Seems like I have gone full circle here! Maybe waiting is the thing to do.
But if conditions are not going to improve or they are going to get worse,
then
there is nothing to do but get the victim ashore knowing that things are bad
and are going to get worse for the ColdOne and maybe others. >>
Roger your last, Dan. One thing we can be pretty sure about is that things
are not going to get better, especially not for the victim. You don't
stabilize a hypothermia victim's core temperature by keeping him in his boat;
unless you take active rewarming measures, he's going to continue to sink into
full hypothermia, become unconscious, and he will die. We don't have much
time to wait for conditions to change. We don't have a lot of time at all.
Other paddlers will get wet and cold; some could be hurt on landing; the
victim will not have a pleasant ride into shore regardless of all efforts.
There's a pretty strong consensus running --- at least from my read of the
posts --- that we'll have to get someone to swim him in. Unless the surf is
very light, the idea of carrying him in on an afterdeck is sketchy at best in
my opinion. If he were to be washed off the deck or lose his grip --- and
there's really good potential for that, even if he were not hypothermic --- we
might lose him somewhere in the impact zone. Lose him as in him!
Rafting or towing is not an option in surf. Our boats are lethal weapons in
the surf zone, with or without a paddler.
This shouldn't be a depressing thread. Some of us have been involved in less
dramatic but still scary scenarios like this. It's a challenging thread
specifically because it could easily be real --- and it could be us. What
would we do --- and what would we do differently?
Again, thanks, Julio.
Jack Martin
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 00:49:12 -0600
From: (sylvio lamanarche)
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
>Philip T. wrote...
While I like playing in the surf, I find being surfed
>backwards down the face of a wave is a very out-of-control, scary feeling.
I find going in backwards offers me a whole lot more control over the
waves, I find it easier to push over a big wave than try back paddle to
avoid take off.
Going backwards makes it so i am ready to take on the waves coming
in...same as when going out...
I started doing this a couple years ago, when loaded [the boat that is] and
in isolated areas. I really took to it and do this all the time now...
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 08:13:21 +0000
From: Michael Neverdosky
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
I have done this scuba diving.
I once had the surf go from 1-3' to 8-12' in the 2 hours my buddy and I were
in the water (shallow dive and we were both low air consumption divers).
Just as we surfaced, my buddy had major cramps in both legs.
I had my buddy put his mask around his neck and regulator in his mouth.
I then grabbed the back of his BC (bouyancy compensator) collar and towed
him in.
It was extreamly brutal.
I kept kicking, screaming, crawling, etc., untill we were both on DRY
sand.
I was spent and my buddy was freaked out!
If my buddy had lost the regulator or run out of air, then I might have had
an unconscious or nonbreathing (possible full arest) victim on the beach and
I did not have anything left to even be able to think of doing effective
CPR.
Each case will have to de decided individually, but if the surf is really bad
and the victim is more than slightly hypothermic, I would radio for rescue and
wait outside the surf zone.
Better to wait for the Coast Guard with a hypothermic person than to have a
person in full arest, hypothermic, trashed by the surf, surounded by exhausted
friends on the beach,,,, and still needing rescue by professionals.
There are no easy answers, and every situation is different.
The only thing that is certain is that the survivors (if any) will have to live
with the outcome, good or bad.
Nobody (that I know) has ever said that going to sea was safe.
michael
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 21:02:15 -0600
From: wayne steffens
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
A most interesting discussion with no easy answers!
A couple of thoughts:
I agree that ropes are not part of the answer in surf. No I havent tried
it, nor will I. Ever. No thank you!
I think that if the ColdOne can hang onto a boat's bow, it would be
possible to back him into shore. This wouldnt be the quickest solution, and
it would depend on the surf conditions. If there is a potential for
back-surfing, it wouldnt be a good idea. (I did my first reverse-pitchpole
in surf last week. I have visions of the victim being catapulted high into
the air, or impaled on the bow). But if there is potential for backsurfing
you are in really deep s#$%@ anyway no matter how you bring him/her in.
However if the surf is such that back-surfing is not a problem, backing in
might give the paddler more control over broaching than coming in head
first. Especially if the paddler is not experienced in surf, as most
inexperienced paddlers are far more comfortable when facing the waves.
However...I have tried hanging onto a kayak end with waves breaking over
me, and it is extremely difficult. If a person is weakened by hypothermia,
or doesnt have good upper body strength to begin with, it probably wont
work. In fact, I dont even like hanging onto the cockpit in surf because
I'm afraid of ending up landward of the boat and having it come down on my
head (umm yess, I'm wearing a helmet of course...ummm yeah). I rarely exit
the boat anymore, but I am still wary of hanging onto it in any fashion in
dumping waves. No easy answers.
Of course the absolute best answer is prevention. People should find a safe
place to practice in surf. I have often wanted to practice surf rescues,
but every time I get into the surf I always forget because I'm having too
much fun. ;-) But that is important too, as the skills learned in surf will
help prevent such an accident from occurring in the first place. Thanks to
this thread though, next year (I only surf when the temp is above 35-40 F.
;-) I will practice assisted surf-rescues as well. I'm not quite sure how
though-the scenario is a very dangerous one with the potential to create
more victims, even in practice.
Wayne
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 11:20:25 -0500
From: "John Winters"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
Larry wrote;
>
>Assuming you're outside the surf zone, would this be a case where you could
>deploy (dare I say it) sponsons on the victim's boat and maybe a sea anchor
>to keep it straight before trying to land? This might help in cases where
>the victim is so far gone that he can't keep his boat upright and/or you
>don't dare let him go into the water. Are there limits on the size of surf
>where this might work, and what would a surf landing with sponsons deployed
>be like?
This would be a good use for sponsons or, better yet a wide boat with high
dynamic stability. The key element would be the sea anchor. Without it,
holding the boat normal to the waves the risk of recapsize in the breaking
waves.
Of course, you know me. I would ask what the hell you were doing out there
anyway. :-)
From my vantage point on the beach I will be happy to shout out
instructions. ;-)
Cheers,
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:01:11 EST
From: JCMARTIN43@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
Since I'm a PaddleWiser of the post-sponson debacle, was wondering if anyone
ever did any testing of these auxilliary flotation devices in surf? With the
impact of surf on handling of sea kayaks in general, it would seem like you'd
have a very good chance of having these things yanked off pretty easily ---
or, worse yet, having one yanked off leaving the boat --- with or without
"high dynamic stability" --- in a pretty permanent 90 degree angle of bank.
Not the easiest thing to get out of! If you lost one, did the other tend to
go, as well --- in other words, were they linked together so if one went, the
other automatically did too? I have seen well-secured deck bags ripped off
sea kayaks in moderate surf, and my suspicion is that the s-word devices would
not fare any better. Any data, experience?
Oh, by the way, John --- we're not in this for real! You're right. None of
us would get into a state like this! We're just cyber-surfing.
Jack Martin
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:19:48 -0500
From: "Dan Volker"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
Jusr remember that coming in with scuba gear is exponentially more difficult
than with mask fins and snorkel---scuba divers have too much mass and drag
to negotiate big waves. Set up like a freediver and waves are far easier.
For 10 footers and over you would have to find a way to body surf the victim
in with you----a new skill for us to attempt with a willing volunteer that
can hold their breath well in case you mess up a few times :-)
Regards,
Dan Volker
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:47:48 -0800
From: "richard"
Subject: [Paddlewise] Landing victim in surf
A friend of mine told me of a trip he took to Australia some years ago.
While he was there he went kayaking with a group and a guide. When it
came time to land through the surf the guide went in first, left his
kayak on the beach, swam back out and brought each of the other kayaks
in through the surf one at a time by holding on to the stern of their
kayaks.
Richard M.
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 13:12:48 -0500
From: "John Winters"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
I did do some testing of sponsons. I think my post to Paddlewise can be
found in the archives. They did not come off in any of our tests.
I suppose I could imagine conditions where they might be torn off since
they are fastened to deck hardware and a boat rolling about in the surf
really does get banged about a lot. Anything that can break a boat can
surely dislodge some gear or fittings.
To me the problems were not in their coming off but in getting them on in
breaking waves and that old bugaboo, putting too much trust in a life
saving device to get you out of what your ego or stupidity got you into.
Cheers,
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:39:14 +1000 (EST)
From: (Jim Croft)
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing victim in surf
> A friend of mine told me of a trip he took to Australia some years ago.
> While he was there he went kayaking with a group and a guide. When it
> came time to land through the surf the guide went in first, left his
> kayak on the beach, swam back out and brought each of the other kayaks
> in through the surf one at a time by holding on to the stern of their
> kayaks.
very unAustralian... generally the attitude is not to worry if they
fall out, because all the important bits will wash ashore eventually...
jim
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:52:54 -0500
From: Dan McCarty
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddling Through Surf
Still More GULPS!
I'm trying limit the limitless variables that I keep thinking up concerning our
ColdOne. But I've been thinking of the leader's responsibilities to the Group
as opposed to ColdOne. What are the thoughts from people who have led trips,
large/commercial trips particularly. I can't think of any actual incidents
that are close to what we have been talking about. Does anyone know of a
related incident?
I think we may have come to an ethical/moral problem as opposed to a kayaking
technical problem....... I'm just going to ignore Legal.....
We have been talking almost exclusively about the ColdOne and technical methods
to get the victim to shore. What about the other members in the group? If the
group is two people, LeaderWithNoGoodChoices and ColdOne, what if the surf
conditions are such that even our poor leader might not survive? The two are
at a point along the coast where it is to rocky and rough to make a landing.
Or just flat out impossible. What should LeaderWithNoGoodChoices do? If a
landing is very high risk or impossible, what to do? Leave ColdOne? If
staying rafted up is possible, ColdOne is eventually a Goner since s/he can't
be warmed up. Leaving ColdOne to try to get help does not work either.
Staying with ColdOne likely risks the life of LeaderWithNoGoodChoices but rea
lly does not help the victim. What is the correct action? Is this now an
ethical question?
Assuming that towing or landing is not an option it seems like you try to wait
it out with ColdOne. GULP!
What if there are three or more people in the group. In the last scenario
MAYBE a person(s) could paddle to find a rescuer leaving a person(s) to keep
GoldOne from going bottom up. If the landing is possible just really ugly and
likely to lead to further injuries to ColdOne and the rescuers, what about the
rest of the group? What responsibilities does LeaderWithNoGoodChoices have to
toward them? Are they now being placed at risk to do an unforeseen landing in
bad conditions? Should they paddle on their original course after ColdOne and
friends have made a landing? Does TheLeaderWithNoGoodChoices have more
responsibility to ColdOne than the others? When does the health of the rest
of the group overtake concerns for ColdOne?
There are many variables in this such as the skill level in the group, is there
someone who can take over leadership if the group splits, wind direction, wind
speed, sea state, etc. but at what point does the trip leader decide that the
group is more important? What options does LeaderWithNoGoodChoices have at
that point? What about ColdOne?
Seems like in some of this you quickly come to a point of having to make a
decision that you can live with when the 20/20 glasses are on, aka, looking in
the mirror. Or a decision that might be the less painful.....
Later...
Dan McCarty
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:51:08 +1100
From: Wayne Langmaid
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Use of fins - Landing victim in surf
Richard -
I just spent the last three weeks as one of the instructors on a sea
kayak program for the Australian Army's Adventurous Training Program.
The fins used to swim the boats in are used commonly here in Australia
as "boogie board fins". These fins are much shorter than the average
"scuba fins". It makes them easy to stow and put on in the water.
In the civilian application they are used for acceleration purposes to
get your board onto the waves. I use them for hunting abalone (yum)
during kayak trips.
Remember that the army uses them in an operational context. In other
words you are deployed to land on a specific beach (usually from a sub)
and it does not matter what the surf is like, you need to make that
beach with you, your gear, your klepper and your mates intact (well, as
much as possible) in order to complete the missions objective.
In the civilian context, John Winters is most definitely correct - why
are you there in the first place needing the fins?? It may indicate
poor judgement or planning and maybe a time to choose a different beach
to land on. Everyone should have a few good bail out beaches anyways.
The guide doing the landings obviously has a system which works for him
and his operation. I personally would not recommend doing this without
a lot of practice and believe me the practice has it's down
If you chose to land, well I'm sure that Jim Croft who has first hand
experience at landing many different parts of his dismembered boat on
the rocks at the same time can tell all of us a good procedure for
collecting all your scattered equipment and first aid process for
tending numerous abraisions on your backside!!! :)) (nice to see
you back contributing to the list Jim).
All the best -
Wayne Langmaid
Central Coast Kayak Tours - only a step away from Sydney, Australia
http://www.kayaktours.com
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:47:27 -0800
From: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing victim in surf
richard wrote:
> A friend of mine told me of a trip he took to Australia some years ago.
> While he was there he went kayaking with a group and a guide. When it
> came time to land through the surf the guide went in first, left his
> kayak on the beach, swam back out and brought each of the other kayaks
> in through the surf one at a time by holding on to the stern of their
> kayaks.
This seems to be an Aussie thing as what I mentioned last week about the
military using it there for getting in their heavily laden double
folding kayaks. It is so much their thing, that the rudder has a padded
cutout for the swimmer to hold on to while acting as a sea anchor when
helping the boat in.
ralph diaz
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:00:42 +1100
From: Wayne Langmaid
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddling Through Surf - A Commercial & Personal View
G'day Dan -
A very important point which you have brought up here.
You would likely not hear of many (if any, I hope) commercial trips who
end up in this position. At least I don't believe they should end up in
this type of position in the first place.
My opinion, as a commercial guide and tour operator, is that the guide
has a responsibility to always err on the overtly conservative side in
trip management.
If you, as the most experienced person on a tour are in the "adventure
level" of your abilities, then your group is likely in the "misadventure
level" of their abilities and you are courting potential disaster.
It is the company and the guides responsibility to avoid potential
situations like this through vigilance, effective planning, safety/risk
management procedures, route management, participant management and a
myriad of other details. This
should mean you don't end up at that point where you have the problem of
the hypothermic or incapacitated participant in the first place.
Therefore the question of how to get the Cold One through the surf
should not really be an issue. Does it sound simplistic? Yes, I think
it is. Just don't reach that critical level in your trip management in
the first place.
In the end, the responsibility of a lifesaver is to not become another
victim, nor to allow any bystanders become further victims. You only
have to refer to any of the Red Cross or St. Johns Ambulance training
manuals. Remember DRABC - danger, response etc, etc, ..................
This may come as a sobering thought to some. It is your responsibility
and in your best interest, as a participant in an activity, to both be
prepared and to monitor your own personal status on any given trip. If
you are in over your head
or getting even close, say so to the trip leader and be very clear about
it. Don't bullshit yourself or the group and end up a liability that
the group or the trip leader may not be able to do anything with.
Most guides will acknowledge that there are numerous levels of meaning
in the statement from a client which often comes like this -
Guide - "Are you OK?"
Client/particpant - "Yeah, I'm OK".
The real meaning in this statement can be anything in the spectrum from
"I am on top of the world and nothing can knock me off" to, "I am so
bloody scared I have just soiled myself!!"
Most of us are very good at our jobs and can recognise these various
states - but we are not crystal ball readers.
If I did end up in the unlikely position of the scenario which has been
put forth - say it was a group of eight and one of the persons was so
seriously incapacitated - my responsibility is to make sure ALL of the
party survives by using every ability,
resource and trick I can muster.
I am paid to be an effective guide who does not end up with his group in
this position in the first place.
I am not paid enough though to be a martyr, nor to play with the lives
and families of the rest of the group. As a result, much of my safety
planning concerns not only my resposnbility to my clients safety, but
also the responsibility to MY
family. I must ensure that I get back home safely to my three daughters
and my wife.
Being who I am, I would likely never leave someone behind to die. I
must therefore make sure I do not have to make that choice, as it would
be grossly unfair and unjust to my family.
I hope I never have to make this choice - it would not be easy and it
would never be made casually.
Hmmmmm
.......................................................................
Wayne Langmaid
Central Coast Kayak Tours - Australia
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:04:19 -0500
From: Scott Ives
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
Here's my two cents:
As a former Ocean City, Md. beach lifeguard, I want to stress that you
HAVE to respect the Ocean. I've seen alot of dislocated shoulders
connected to idiots trying to outrun a big wave!
In my mind, there is only one safe way to come through heavy surf.
Get out of the damn boat, and swim in by timing your approach
carefully. I've done this lots of times carrying a real life victim at
the end of a buoy. I could have done it almost as easily by strapping
one of my arms across the victims body; placing them on my hip; and
swimming in with a side stroke.
You don't need a fancy mask or fins if you have a strong stroke. You
will be through the surf in under two minutes. Anyway, no offense to
Dan, but I would love to see a guy put on fins in really heavy surf.
This is the key to getting through the surf: keep you eyes on the
waves, NOT the shore. I feel much more comfortable in heavy surf
(swimming) than I do in white water for one reason. Except in very
confused, heavy August surf or storms, the sea is rhythmic. I can
actually "feel" when a wave is coming if I'm looking at the shore just
by the amount of time that has passed.
When a big wave actually is hitting, there is only one thing to do:
Turn the victim and yourself towards the wave, and dive deep underneath
it. Of course, it is polite to tell the victim about this before the
wave hits! I would just tell them (and this includes an 8 year old boy
far off shore in confused, heavy seas) "take a deep breath, and go under
water!". Of course, I never let go of the victim the entire time.
Once the wave passes, you come up fast and swim like hell to get in
before the next one hits. I would often end up body surfing in the last
part, with the victim holding onto the buoy.
In summary, in light surf, the victim can just hold onto the buoy,
and I could tow him in. When a big mama hits, you HAVE to dive deep and
get under it. Trust me, I did this professionally for two summers, and
probably made about 15 real rescues (not the j.v. pool types!). You
don't need fancy gear, just a strong stroke and a sense for timing. If
you think you are going to be able to carry a victim through heavy surf
on the back of your kayak, you are dreaming. Your kayak would suddenly
get alot lighter after a big wave hits!
Now a question for you all. I have paddled through the surf when it
is relatively light on numerous occasions. However, I have a real fear
of either going out, or coming in through big breakers. Am I the only
one with this fear? My fear is that a wave will send me end over end,
and my spine will snap like a twig. Don't laugh, I met a 30 year old
guy confined to a wheelchair for life for this very reasons. Do you
guys ever think about this problem? A sit upon wouldn't bother me. I
can handle the surf, I just want to make sure I can fall off in a hurry!
- Scott Ives
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 02:59:47 -0600
From: (sylvio lamanarche)
Subject: [Paddlewise] Respect for them waves...
Scott wrote...
> As a former Ocean City, Md. beach lifeguard, I want to stress that you
>HAVE to respect the Ocean. I've seen alot of dislocated shoulders
>connected to idiots trying to outrun a big wave!
I spend 2 days on a beach before I cold get out, the waves were way over
myy skills. But I was on a great little tropical beach with bananas and
lemons. @ days later 2 fissherpoeple walked by and one raced back over the
hills [ about 15 kms] and came back with a fishing boat to take me away...
> This is the key to getting through the surf: keep you eyes on the
>waves, NOT the shore.
That's why I go in backwards, ready to tackle the waves...
> When a big wave actually is hitting,
I am ready to punch through the waves as if I am going out, but as
I get on top of the wave, i can stop paddling and syart backpaddling till
the next big one...
> Once the wave passes,
I am then ready to back paddle to shore, the water also helps take
me to shore.
This way I found that i can control my speed towards shore and be in
control of the boat.
> However, I have a real fearof either going out, or coming in through big
>breakers. Am >I the onlyone with this fear? My fear is that a wave will
>send me end over end,
>and my spine will snap like a twig.
That is why I was glad to spend time on my deserted beach, I am ready to
stay on them beaches for a real long time not to go out and risk it ...
That beach was very narrow, just in from a big rocky cliff
headland, sticking out into the south china sea, the water was bouncing,
rebounding,and jumping all over with monster breakers to boot...not my
idea...still wonder how I got into shore at all, must of been fear and
terror of the sea at the time... I sure learned lots on thet journey...This
was my first year at it as well...
Have fun out there
3 weks till Sai Gon
Sylvio Lamarche
Wycliffe gardens
& other exotic locales
around the globe
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:01:24 -0500
From: "Larry Bliven"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
Scott,
your rescue experience demonstrates that swimming is a practical approach
for surf landings.
however for that technique to work, kayakers need to be able to swim. My
local paddle club puts its emphasis on paddling gear and rolling. the
subject of swimming is rarely discussed... indeed being able to roll is the
hallmark of advanced paddlers and the entry ticket to paddling with 'the
guys.' indeed there are some advanced paddlers who can not swim. i wonder
if swimming skills are an important part of kayaking...
Are swimming skills a part of kayak training programs that offer
certifications? Not that i put emphasis on certificates, but i wonder what
importance those groups place on swimming.
bye bye bliven
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:30:42 -0500
From: "Dan Volker"
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
Scott,
You get no arguement from me if you are already in a heavy surf line---there
would be no time to put fins on...However, in the thread I was replying to,
it sounded like the breaking surf was only a factor in the beach entry, and
the ocean outside the surf line was relatively easy to paddle and remain
stable in----some approaches are bad even though the overall ocean is
not---it this scenario, the fins,mask and snorkel could get some of the less
powerful swimmers through the surfline while carrying a limp buddy---no
issue for you, but to the less powerful swimmer, a potentially major feat.
And, mask fins and snorkel are a nice accessory for kayaks, as you never
know when you will see an extrememly cool reef or some marine life you would
like a closer look at.
Regards,
Dan
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:42:04 -0800
From: Dave Kruger
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
Larry's post made me think about my "head set" when paddling on the ocean. I
now realize that my comfort in paddling just outside the surf zone is
attributable to my high degree of confidence that, worst comes to worst, I can
swim to shore, through big surf if I have to.
What I had not thought about, until Larry's post, was that negotiating big surf
probably terrifies most people, just as serious whitewater terrifies me. Good
illustration of how we each have our own set of blinders.
Re: should kayakers be able to swim WELL? Absolutely. That's the last line
of defense -- not that it's much use well offshore. But, because most of us
paddle within 0.5 miles of a shoreline, swimming could be the last resort.
Aaah, well, not in those 5 meter waves on Georgian Bay, I guess, hey John W?
- --
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:47:07 -0500
From: Scott Ives
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
Alright folks, I'm getting back on my soapbox!
Larry Bliven spoke of good kayakers that couldn't swim. I think this
a receipe for disaster. When I guarded at the beach, we would
occasionally have to swim out and wake up tourists who fell asleep on
rafts. They thought they were in their local pool! Can you imagine if
we let them wake up about 3 miles offshore?
The point is that we must have great respect for the sea (or ANY body
of water - even a pool). You just can't use a kayak, raft or anything
else as a crutch. I think it is a terrible idea for anyone to go out
farther than they can swim in on any boat (or at least tread water for
several hours).
Yes, I know that some eskimos (not p.c. - Aelutians?) couldn't swim
- - but that water was below freezing. And they went out to get food to
survive, not for recreation!
I can roll (ok, about 75% of the time on my good side), and I can
reenter and roll/or climb back in with a paddle float. But I wouldn't
be out there if I couldn't swim well. A kayaker who can't swim well
needs to get his priorities worked out, and take an adult swim class.
Or he/she should stay very close to shore ... but even then he risks
becoming a fatality.
Your milage may vary!
- Scott
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:43:11 -0500
From: Scott Ives
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
Julio MacWilliams wrote in response to the following comment:
>
> > When a big wave actually is hitting, there is only one thing to do:
> > Turn the victim and yourself towards the wave, and dive deep underneath
> > it. Of course, it is polite to tell the victim about this before the
> > wave hits! I would just tell them (and this includes an 8 year old boy
> > far off shore in confused, heavy seas) "take a deep breath, and go under
> > water!". Of course, I never let go of the victim the entire time.
>
> This is difficult with a PFD. Would you recommend taking it off to
> swim through surf?
>
> >
> > Now a question for you all. I have paddled through the surf when it
> > is relatively light on numerous occasions. However, I have a real fear
> > of either going out, or coming in through big breakers. Am I the only
> > one with this fear? My fear is that a wave will send me end over end,
> > and my spine will snap like a twig.
> > - Scott Ives
>
> Please expand. Do you fear hitting the sand with your back?
> Or a sudden neck movement that would break you cervicals?
>
> A PFD and a helmet should protect your back and skull. A rigid
> back plate in a PFD similar to hockey equipment would be a
> a nice improvement.
>
> - Julio
- --
Julio brings up an excellent point. It's funny how we forget the
obvious with time. As a beach lifeguard I obviously didn't have a PFD
on. The lack of a PFD also increased my diving ability. Has anyone
tried to dive under a wave with a PFD on? What happens?
Julio, I don't think I would ever have a poor swimmer take off a PFD.
Even if he breaks something, he has a better chance of surving with a
PFD. Now for a good swimmer like myself, I'm not sure. I think I would
be better off in the surf without one (ie. diving under waves), I've
been conditioned to think its blasphemy to ever take my PFD off!
With respect to my fear of snapping my spine - I am referring to the
wave forcing my boat end over end -- like a cartwheel. In such a
situation the danger zone is the lower spine so a helmut would have no
effect -- ditto with a back brace --- this would probably make the
problem worse.
I'm no doctor, but the fear is that with the lower body firmly stuck
in the kayak the upper body would be leveraged forward (or backward in
the flip) violently, thereby snapping the spine near the lower
vertebra. As I mentioned before, I unfortunatley met a guy who suffered
this accident and will be in a wheelchair the rest of his life.
If one could exit quick enough (and this is the advantage of a sit
upon kayak), this problem would be avoided. The body has a much better
chance of not suffering a back injury if you are not leveraged
un-naturally in a kayak. However, is the split second it takes to go
end over end, there would be no time to get out of the skirt.
This problem only concerns me in rough surf. Like many of you, I have
surfed in small waves without any problem ... and yes, it is great fun
to ride one in all the way into the beach! But if the surf is big, I
wet exit, hold onto the back rope handle on my kayak, and let the boat
pull me in.
There is an added advantate of this approach. If there are swimmers
around, they invariably get right in front of your boat without looking.
By holding onto the back of the boat, I can create drag and slow the
boat down enough to keep from harpooning a fat tourist. Unless of
course, walrus season is open. Then I sharpen the bow of my kayak,
stealthly approach a rotund tourist, and zoom in at maximum speed.
Sorry, bad joke.
- Scott
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:29:57 EST
From: KiAyker
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
In a message dated 11/11/98 5:45:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, ssives
writes:
<< Larry Bliven spoke of good kayakers that couldn't swim. I think this
a receipe for disaster. >>
Well now, we need to make up our minds! If one ALWAYS wears their pfd as
many folks on this list preach, then WHY would one need to know how to
swim????
Scott
So.Cal.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:25:13 -0600
From: "R. Walker"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
> The point is that we must have great respect for the sea (or ANY body of
> water - even a pool). You just can't use a kayak, raft or anything else
> as a crutch. I think it is a terrible idea for anyone to go out farther
> than they can swim in on any boat (or at least tread water for several
> hours).
Now you are going overboard. The purpose of a boat is to get you
to places you can't swim or walk to. I suppose with a PFD I could
swim 6 miles; but that is not going to stop me from going to spots
that are 6 miles from shore. Routinely Texans have to go 10-20
miles offshore to get to clear water, sometimes even much further
than that. I can get there in a kayak. I can fish, and I can come
home; without spending hundreds of dollars on a stupid fishing trip.
To limit yourself to only near-coastal waters in a boat that was
designed to hunt seals in freezing, big water, doesn't seem very
logical.
Richard Walker
Houston, TX
http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:34:45 -0500
From: Greg Stamer
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
At 11:04 PM 11/10/98 -0500, Scott Ives wrote:
>> Now a question for you all. I have paddled through the surf when it
>is relatively light on numerous occasions. However, I have a real fear
>of either going out, or coming in through big breakers. Am I the only
>one with this fear? My fear is that a wave will send me end over end,
>and my spine will snap like a twig. Don't laugh, I met a 30 year old
>guy confined to a wheelchair for life for this very reasons. Do you
>guys ever think about this problem? A sit upon wouldn't bother me. I
>can handle the surf, I just want to make sure I can fall off in a hurry!
Scott,
I have been slammed back onto the rear deck more than once and will not use
any kayak in the surf that impedes my ability to lay back on the rear deck.
This includes high volume designs where the rear cockpit coaming hits high
on my back, high seatbacks and gear on the back deck. It also rules out
carrying a "bail-out" waist pack.
With proper technique, "getting slammed" should be quite rare. In my case
it has always been from getting tired or lazy and having a large wave break
on my chest. Generally you can time your passage through the surf zone to
avoid this. If not, you can capsize and let your hull take the beating or
become a needle and adopt a forward tuck position (kiss the deck) with the
paddle held close to one side of the boat. This is an unstable position but
with practice you can tuck and untuck very quickly and literally shed quite
powerful waves.
When capsized I instinctively tuck forward and hold the paddle tightly
against the hull. There can be some strong turbulence at first and you
don't want to lose the paddle. Novices to the surf zone often try to roll
up too quickly. Assuming you have enough air in your lungs, it is usually
best to "hang out" for a few moments for the turbulence to subside and then
roll up. There are always exceptions though. Sometimes you can roll back up
immediately by a slight pressure on the paddle depending on the conditions.
This is a difficult skill to describe, with practice you will simply know
the correct sensations that will either favor a roll or require some wait
time.
A sit-on-top is not a panacea in the surf. Most instances where you are
forcefully slammed against the kayak deck happen much to quickly to bail
out beforehand. If you do manage to "eject" keep in mind that while you are
in the salt water "wash-cycle" your kayak is tumbling right in there beside
you.
Greg Stamer
Orlando, Florida
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:10:14 EST
From: Johnlebl
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
In a message dated 11/11/1998 9:57:19 PM EST, ssives
<< Now for a good swimmer like myself, >>
Is the rule "he who judges himself a fool" still in effect?
John
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:21:44 -0500
From: Scott Ives
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
Richard,
The last part of my tirade dealt with being able to tread water. My
own personal "survivalist" rule is that I would not like to go out
further than I could return to land if need be under my own power. I
might take a 30 mile kayak trip, but I personally would prefer to stay
no more than 1-2 miles off shore. I know where are supposed to stay
with the boat, but what if a boat were to crack and sink?
This might be my own personal lack of courage, but I do not want to be
20 miles off shore in a kayak! This is the reason that cruising boats
carry inflatable lifeboats bigger than our kayaks! Just in case ...
I'm just giving my personal preference. I applaud the fact that you
can go 20 miles off shore without spending the big $$ on a fishing
boat. I personally would never do it. But I wouldn't kayak to Hawaii
from California (didn't Gillete do it in an Arluk?), or cross the
Atlantic in a Klepper either. To each his own. I'm just saying that
when we leave our safety zone, the risks rise accordingly.
Happy fishing!
Scott
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:24:43 EST
From: Johnlebl
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
In a message dated 11/11/1998 10:47:26 PM EST, KiAyker@aol.com writes:
<< Well now, we need to make up our minds! If one ALWAYS wears their pfd as
many folks on this list preach, then WHY would one need to know how to
swim???? >>
Swimming is how you move around in water when you can't touch the bottom with
your feet! No can swim, no can move. Duhhhh!!!
Oh silly me! I Forgot! The lifeguard will come out and save me. Duhhh!
John
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:52:40 EST
From: Johnlebl
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
Frst, I know very little about big waves and sea kayaks. I recently watched
Maliquai (sp?) the Greenland Kayak Champion at age 16 demonstrate Greenland
Kayak Techniques in his seal skin Kayak at the Southwestern Canoe Rendevous
near Houston, Texas.
He demonstrated over 30 different rolls or variations of the roll. Some were
absolutely amazing.
One I particularly remember was he layed over against the water, hull parallel
and toward the oncomming wave. (well, not actually because there are no waves
in Lake Raven at Huntsville State Park) but the idea was to lay over and let
the wave crash over you instead of into you., thereby saving both you and the
boat.
Does this help in the discussion going on? Does it make sence? I don't know
enough to pass judgement.
John LeBlanc
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:40:34 +0000
From: Michael Neverdosky
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] landing a victim through surf
A bit like highsiding a motorcycle.
It spits you off and then jumps on top of you for a few tumbles.
Most motorcycle racers get more injures from the motorcycle hitting
them than from them hitting the ground.
The problem I see with the 'bailout' method is that you need to bail
before it is needed. If you wait until there is no choice, you are much
more
likely to be injured by the kayak than by the surf itself.
To work well, you need to bail before it is needed and get away from the
boat.
Another one of those 'judgement' things. :-)
I don't know about anybody else, but I learn judgement from experience.
Experience is what I get when I don't get what I want. :-)(
michael