Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:17:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Greg Hollingsworth 
Subject: [Paddlewise] When do you start and stop wearing cold water gear?

Ralph Diaz brought up a question to these lists about a month ago about
our local club's standard for requiring cold water protective gear when
the water temperature drops below 65 deg F.  This got me to wondering what
my personal cold water dress preferences are.  When do I start and stop
wearing cold water gear? 

In 1997, I kept a detailed paddling log that included what I wore for each
trip.  I generally make my own decision on what cold water to wear gear
based on my own personal comfort level and feelings about safety, not on
the recommendation of others.  I generally like to get wet and I like to
be comfortable when I am wet, so I'll often put on cold water gear sooner
than the average paddler.

Since I didn't save the water temp in my log, I downloaded the local
(Thomas Point Light - http://www.nws.fsu.edu/B/buoy?tplm2) air and sea
surface water temperatures off the Internet for all of 1997; loaded the
data points into Excel (Microsoft's one good program) and plotted them in
a graph. I also totaled the water and air temps for each time period and
plotted that as well. Someone else on the list had suggested that a "100
deg F rule" such that when the air and water temp combined were greater
than 100, cold water gear was optional. I wanted to see how this rule fit
into my paddling style and if there was any validity to it in this area.

Here's what I learned about my personal preferences.  In 1997, I stopped
wearing cold water gear at 62 deg F on May 20 and began wearing cold water
gear again on October 10 when the water temp was 68 deg F (the air temp
was cold that day). 

So, what about that 100 degree rule?  

Based on the data I have for this area, if I had gone purely by this rule
in 1997, I could have paddled on 22 days where the water temp was 50
degrees or less.  On 8 of these days, the water temp was 45 or less.  In
1996, there were 12 days where the air temp and sea temp totalled over a
100 while the water temp was less than 50, on 2 of these the water temp
was less than 45, and on one day the water temp was 36 with the air temp
at 66 (36+66=102).  I would  paddle in these water temps without
cold water protection.  After seeing how air temps can fluctuate wildly
while sea temps do not, I'm convinced that one should consider primarily
the sea temp when making gear decisions. 

If you want to take a look at my graph of the 1997 data, it's at: 

    http://www.abs.net/~gregh/kayaking/TPL-tmps.jpg

Based on what I see my in my own personal behavior, requiring cold water
gear on club trips when the water temp is below 65 degrees may be a little
conservative, but not excessively so.  Given that outings are often well
attended by less experienced paddlers, such conservatism is probably good. 

There are my thoughts... feel free to add yours.

	Greg

- -
Greg Hollingsworth 

EMAIL:   PHONE: 240-228-6065 WWW: abs.net/~gregh/kayaking
LIVES: Sykesville, Maryland   WORKS:  Johns Hopkins/Applied Physics Lab
PADDLES: Red Nordkapp usually on Chesapeake tributaries
- -



Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 21:20:16 -0800
From: Dave Kruger 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] When do you start and stop wearing cold water gear?

Thank you, Greg!  What a terrific post!  I've wondered myself what the
actual  *practices*  were for seasoned paddlers.  For those who did not
bother to hit the URL for the graph, it is really instructive.  In Greg's
area, the water and air temps (running 5-day average, anyway) track very
closely.

For comparison, around here, we never get water temps as high as his
graph.  Consequently, I 'spect Greg would wear his wet suit on more trips,
here.

Thanks again, Greg.

- -- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR



Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 12:41:49 -0800
From: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
Subject: [Paddlewise] when start/stop cold water garb

Very interesting graph.  A couple of questions and comments.  I don't
mean to be picky and precise but your graph brings that out in me!:

You seem to have worn cold water protection just beyond Oct 10th on a
day in which the air temperature hit 80 degrees and the water was at 70
degrees.  Similarly you wore cold water protection prior to the May 20th
date on a day in which the air temperature was 80 degrees and the water
temperature in the low 60s.

a) What sort of cold water gear did you wear those days?  (if you can
recall :-)) I assume it was not a dry suit.  For that matter, what did
you wear in general in those marginal periods in earlier May and just
after Oct 10th?

b) Why did you not go sans cold gear a bit longer into that 80 air/ 70
sea day?  I suspect that the wind or where you planned to paddle may
have accounted for this.  Or something else.

2.  You do intend to get wet, as you state.  That certainty certainly
dictates your clothing choice to wear the gear at water temperatures
below 65 degrees.  I know I would certainly wear such gear in the low
60s degree water if I were practicing rescues etc.  Not that it would be
needed but that it would be more comfortable.

(But practice situations are different from actual situations.  If I
know I will be doing lots of self-rescues drills even in 80 degree water
temperature I wear pants instead of shorts.  Getting in and out of a
boat can get your legs scratched up on deck hardware and rough
surfaces.  Why needlessly get cut up.  In a real life self-rescue, if
you got scratched because you were wearing shorts, so be it.  You would
be in shorts because that is what the paddling conditions dictated.  If
you needed to self-rescue, the shorts might mean getting scratched up.)

If a trip did not plan for such exposure I doubt that any paddler
in non-cotton clothing, experienced or not, would be in serious danger
of hypothermia, cold-water shock, incapacitation, etc. if he fell into
60 to 65 degree water with air temperature in the 70s and either by
himself or the help of others would be back in his boat within a
few minutes?  Those temperature conditions prevail for several
months of the swimming season for beachgoers in many parts of the
country and I don't think that first aid stations at beaches are filled
with hypothermic victims at that time.  So a human being can certainly
tolerate them.

I hope I am not coming across argumentative.  I agree with you in the
main about the problems with guidelines that are based on the sum of air
and sea temperature.  Water temperature is the key.  Below some water
temperature you must have some level of cold water protection no matter
what the air temperature.  

The precise choice of cold water gear would differ
according to other conditions, where you were paddling, and your
intentions regarding getting wet.  Dry suits for some situations.  In
other situations, lesser items such as farmer john neoprene or
watersport polartec combined with waterproof jackets and possibly
waterproof pants.

Judging by what you are doing and from what I have heard from others, I
think this spring I will raise my own personal threshold of cold water
gear from the present 55 degrees to a new level of 60 degrees. At least
on the upper part of my body with a vest or short sleeve shirt or jacket
of that watersport polartec stuff. 
  
ralph diaz
- -



Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:21:17 -0500
From: "John Winters" 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] When do you start and stop wearing cold water gear?

Greg wrote;

- --(SNIP)

>
>So, what about that 100 degree rule?
>
>

In an earlier discussion about the 100 degree rule I think we all agreed
that the "Rule" was not absolute.

It serves as a guide only.

I don't think that any magic exists for any temperature or combination of
temperatures. Personal conditioning, the type of cold weather gear you
wear, whether you paddle alone etc. all influence how you react to the
"RULE". As such we can consider the "RULE" unfortunate nomenclature sort of
like "Greenland kayak" or Greenland paddle".

As presented to me the 100 degree rule served to stimulate thinking about
what you should wear. I do not think anyone ever expected people to pull
out their thermometers and say, "Oh, its 100.25 so I don't have to wear a
wet suit."

Cheers,
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/



Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 08:16:30 -0800
From: Roger Korn
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] when start/stop cold water garb

rdiaz@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> 
> Judging by what you are doing and from what I have heard from others, I
> think this spring I will raise my own personal threshold of cold water
> gear from the present 55 degrees to a new level of 60 degrees. At least
> on the upper part of my body with a vest or short sleeve shirt or jacket
> of that watersport polartec stuff.
> 
> ralph diaz
> -

Age enters the equation somewhere. 30 years ago, I used to swim across
the Columbia River on New Year's Day (about a mile in typically 38 F
water), accompanied by a rowboat. Now, for paddling, I put on a Farmer
John most of the time, even if the water is 60 F. If the air is too
warm, I'll change to a shorty for 60-minus water. The question is really
about water temp for protection and air temp for comfort, and the
compromise gets tougher as my 60th b'day approaches. I'll generally
intentionally capsize and roll or wet exit every time I go paddling,
because I don't like the panicky feeling when it happens "for real", and
this keeps me in touch with whether my attire is suitable for current
conditions.

Roger



Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:59:30 -0500
From: "Larry Bliven"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] when start/stop cold water garb

The email from Roger Korm seems to me to be well balanced and practical,
especially from a safety and fun perspective on an individual basis.

on the other hand, the input from Greg seems to be from the realm of finding
a grand solution for everyone that satisfys the needs of a club.

i think that the needs of clubs are different than the needs of individuals.
i have little tollerence for club rules that do not accept the variability
of people or paddling conditions.

however i understand that in the Washington DC area, sporting goods dealers
are sued by the public about 10 times as often as sporting goods dealers
from other regions, thus a DC based paddle club needs to be much more
sensitive to law suits than paddle clubs in other areas.

Thus i feel that cold weather paddling requirements are dependent upon
(a)  the individual
(b) the club and its location
AS WELL as the paddling conditions and personal factors.

One size does not fit all.... at all. for me, cold water paddling
discussions need to consider many factors. otherwise, the discussion are on
a very basic level that everyone will tend to accept. in which case, it adds
little information.

i have much  more respect for senior paddlers who have much experience and
are alive to discuss it with us. for them i am very thankful.



Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:09:46 -0500
From: Greg Hollingsworth 
Subject: [Paddlewise] When do you start and stop wearing cold water gear?

After Ralph Diaz pointed out some inconsistencies in the Thomas Point Light
data that I posted recently, I spent some more time and straightened out
some of the problems.  The new graph may be found at:


http://www.abs.net/~gregh/kayaking/tpl-1997.jpg

I also graphed the temps for 1998 and 1996.  These may be found
at:


http://www.abs.net/~gregh/kayaking/tpl-1998.jpg

http://www.abs.net/~gregh/kayaking/tpl-1996.jpg

You will find that my skills with Microsoft's excel product have improved
considerably since the first graph. Excel is really an excellent
program, my skills in using it are not as great.  Yes, it is important 
to keep in mind that these were <my> personal preferences for my
own comfort. While I like to get wet, I think it is important
to plan on submersion regardless of whether you plan on getting wet on 
a given paddle.

Some have raised the question of how a simple rule (such as protection
necessary at 65 or less) can meet everyone's needs.  The problem
is that when you lead a trip in such conditions, you frequently don't
know the skills or conditioning of the paddlers that will request to 
join the trip. You need a place to draw the line, a way to make a 
go/no go decision for someone that desires to go on the trip that is
 perhaps ignorant of the dangers of cold water.  It is impossible 
to apply a more complex rule given the unknown nature of the skills of 
those who will be joining the trip.  Perhaps a line drawn at the 60 degree 
mark would be more realistic, but then, being conservative seems the 
better approach to me.

A few years ago, I joined a club trip that took place on August 13,
1996. The water temp was 45 degrees while the high air temp was 
60 degrees. It was a very nice day! We had an individual join us who 
had no cold gear and who was unable to get back into the boat after 
a wet exit.  I knew this because I coached this person in the 
pool the week before.  The trip leader was uncomfortable in 
telling this person not to go and throughout the trip, we kept a 
close eye on the person from start to finish. This was a recipe for 
disaster. Near the end of the trip, the winds kicked up a little and 
made us even more nervous.  At the end of the trip, a tow line was 
applied to hasten the extremely slow pace.

Personally, I think that such a rule, combined with the trip leaders
ability to make exceptions based on known skills of paddlers is the 
way to go. As a potential future trip leader for our local club, I 
like the fact that the local club has laid out the rules for cold 
water gear. If people don't like the rules, they can opt to paddle 
somewhere else.

Put yourself in the place of a club trip leader, how do you feel about
it?

>Also, I'd like to hear from more of you, when do you start and stop
wearing cold water gear?

  Greg 



Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:29:54 -0800
From: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [CPAKayaker] When do you start and stop wearing cold water gear?

Greg Hollingsworth wrote:

> After Ralph Diaz pointed out some inconsistencies in the Thomas Point
> Light data that I posted recently, I spent some more time and 
> straightened out some of the problems.

I'm not sure that I was astute enough to see any inconsistency.  It just
puzzled me that in a matter of a few days in October you had switched to
cold water gear with air temperature and water temperature still quite
warm (80 and 70 respectively)and I was just asking your rationale for
the shift at that point. 

> A few years ago, I joined a club trip that took place on August 13,
> 1996.  The water temp was 45 degrees while the high air temp was 
> 60 degrees.  It was a very nice day! We had an individual join us 
> who had no cold gear and who was  to get back into the boat 
> after a wet exit.  I knew this because I coached this person in the 
> pool the week before.  The trip leader was uncomfortable in telling 
> this person not to go and throughout the trip, we kept a close eye 
> on the person from start to finish.  This was a recipe for disaster.  
> Near the end of the trip, the winds kicked up a little and made us even
> more nervous. At the end of the trip, a tow line was applied to hasten 
> the extremely slow pace.

If you were paddling in your neck of the woods, I think you meant April
not August.  The temperatures sound more like Maine not
Virginia/Maryland!  Under just about anyone's criteria, the fellow
should have had cold water protection.  I don't know of any organized
group that paddles below 50 degree water without insisting on cold water
gear for a paddler.  Most have 55 degrees as the threshold.  The
exception has been some of the commercial operators who lead trips at
the end of April and early May when water temperatures are still in the
very high 40s but the air is a balmy 70 or more and everyone is staying
close with enough skilled staff strategically placed to fish people out
in a jiffy.

ralph diaz
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz@ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
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