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From: "Dr. Peter Rand" Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 1:19 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Just put a down payment on a folding kayak at a local boat show - the Klepper Aerius expedition (I was shocked that the Klepper rep had never heard of Ralph :-) I was planning to get a single, since my girlfriend never expressed the slightest interest in joining me for outings, but as I was filling out the paperwork she got visibly nervous and said well, maybe she would like to join me for outings after all. Oops... I need some advice! There are so many pros and cons to this issue. If I get the double, I'm sure I'll be using it frequently as a single, if I get a single, my girlfriend won't be able to join me for the occasional outing. (At least Ralph says "solo paddling is fine" in the Aerius II). The double is 8 kilos heavier than the single. Any thoughts (especially from couples)? PeterReturn to PaddleWise
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 01:48:52 -0800 From: Dave Kruger Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? You need advice about your relationship, not about boats. Anybody who had not expressed much interest in boating (even though you are avowedly avid), UNTIL confronted by a tangible threat to her control over you is more interested in managing the relationship than she is in boating. Buy the double. Your next girlfriend will be someone you meet on the water during the "detachment" phase of your current relationship. The two of you will love the Aerius, intensify your enamoration within it, and the first child will no doubt be named "Aerius." -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR no Dear Abby, but been there, done that!
From: [Frank Fichtmüller] Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:44:42 +0100 Hi, Peter - coming into our new location I had a double Klepper and happily used it together with my wife. She just liked being taken around, paddling when *she* wanted. After (1) some occasional quarreling (mostly coordination of strokes) and - (2) besides this - myself most time being out without my wife I decides to buy a used single, too. And, since we have three kids (15/11/6 then) I had a 2nd single for my wife. So everything was there to paddle together - theoretically. For a while we still went paddling together - I liked it very much. But as my physical condition got more and more improved by practicing when I had some time (and my wife couldnt or wouldnt go) it became the longer the more frustrating for my wife. So now she is jogging (and says, she likes it much more to move herself this way), our kids interests have changed (19/15/11 now) and most time I am out alone. The double some time ago has been sold (but there is a new - really old from the 50ies - one waiting to be restored) and the 2nd single one will be sold soon. So what I learned: Murphys law ("What can go wrong will go wrong.") works. Specially when you are not too sensitive as I seemed to have been considering what my wife really needed. - And it takes time to talk, to watch, lots of patience and waiting for one or the other if you really want to reach the same goal with your partner. And besides this: Interests may change, which (sometimes painfully) has to be respected. So after all I really wouldnt know to tell you what to do - except being sensitive towards what she really wants (paddle or spend some time near to you in a boat?) and be *very* patient. I´m not sure whether this helps - have a try. Best to both of you, Frank
From: "Glenn Stauffer" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:36:03 -0500 Get the single. When your girlfriend feels like she might want to go along, rent a boat for her until she actually shows that she enjoys kayaking. I made the mistake of buying a bike once for a girlfriend who expressed interest after a long period of not being interested. That girlfriend is long gone and the bike still hangs from the rafters - it being too small for me or any companion that followed. Her interest in riding didn't get past the first ride with significant hills. There is nothing worse than paddling in a double anything with someone who really doesn't enjoy it. That is a sure way to stress any relationship - my ex-wife still brings up the fact that we never could manage paddling a canoe together which should have told us we probably couldn't manage a marriage together. Of course, buying a double kayak and testing the relationship thoroughly before marriage is a lot less stress and cheaper than a divorce. Girlfriends come and girlfriends go, but a good kayak is forever...
From: [Sandy Kramer] Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 12:06:21 EST Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Yeah, don't break up with the girlfriend. All that money for a double that you will probably use solo most of the time. There's an art to paddling double. You have to keep in synch so your paddles aren't clacking. Easier to paddle double with a rudder otherwise you go round and round in circles (blush). There was an article in Sea Kayaker about three (?) years ago on the cons of paddling double. Divorce, for example. Well, it wasn't quite that bad, but many couples have ended up buying two singles. Sandy Kramer (single!)
From: "Philip Torrens" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 10:13:53 PST The question was whether to buy single kayaks or a double kayak. And the answer is: Yes. Buy both. I do most of my touring either solo or with others who want to paddle their own canoe (so to speak). So I have a solo for these trips. My wife is a fair-weather camper/kayaker, who also has some back problems, which means she cannot paddle continuously. Our double allows me to keep us both moving along, gondolier-style, even when she's taking a break from paddling. Result: no frustration on her part that I'm moving too fast or on mine that she's lagging behind. The double is also safer for the two of us: we cannot get separated, it's inherently more stable, and I can brace for both of us in beam seas (you can raft two singles up, but you cannot make progress this way, and I still don't think they'd be as stable as an aggressively braced double). One change I'm making as a result of reading "Deep Trouble" and comments from Matt B. on Paddlewise is outfitting both cockpits of the double with seasocks; Matt makes the point that the floodable volume of most double cockpits means the kayak would float too low in the water to have much chance of pumping out without reswamping. (I long ago rigged the double with holders for paddlefloats behind both cockpits and I carry two paddlefloats, two pumps, and a stirrup to allow my wife to step-ladder back into the boat.) Thanks Matt, pointing out this vital factor with doubles. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06'
From: "jalparker" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:56:02 -0500 We have thousands of miles on two tandem bicycles, and just started paddling a tandem kayak last year. Same concept..... teamwork! Once you get it down, it's great. You won't have to keep turning around to pick her up, if you happen to be the stronger paddler. And, in either case, it's like having two motors on your bike or in your kayak. We're almost fifty, and we get a kick out of putting a twenty-five year old hammerhead away on the tandem bike! We haven't done a lot of group kayak outings yet, but I have a feeling that the same can apply there as well. When paddling in sync, we move! Most certainly faster than our combined effort in singles. However, there is a saying with tandem bicycles. A tandem will drive your relationship in whatever direction it was already headed. For us, it has been positive, kayak and bicycles. I remember Dana Decker saying that the only reason he considered selling us the tandem kayak, was because we were tandem cyclists. He had not had good experiences with other couples. So maybe we're just weird! Anyway, good luck in your decision process. Al (& Heidi) Parker Tallahassee, FL Prijon Odyssee Cannondale MT3000 Cannondale RT1000
From: "Jim Bielecki" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddling a Double Folder Solo Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:22:14 -0500 > From: "Dr. Peter Rand" > > In the Complete Folding Kayaker, Ralph states that "Solo paddling is fine" > with the Klepper Aerius II, but "best done with a solo seat". From what I > can tell, the solo seat is no longer necessary, since newer Kleppers all > seem to have movable seats. Is this right? > > For those who regularly paddle a double on their own, I'd like to hear > your thoughts. I have both a Klepper Aerius II and a Klepper Aerius 2000 mini-single. The A-II with solo seat was purchased brand new in 1990, well before Klepper made the movable seat a standard feature. I bought a used Aerius 2000 last year. As to the boat I pick for solo paddling, it all depends on the type of paddling I wish to do. The A-II excels in big water, meaning Lake Superior, Lake Huron and Lake Michigan, and its cargo capacity can't be beat for times when I feel like going on a solo camping trip. The Aerius 2000 sees most of its use on the hundreds of small inland lakes that dot the northern Michigan landscape. I love its one bag portability, light weight, speed and glide. I'm fortunate to have a choice and, believe it or not, can't imagine going back to one boat. But if push came to shove, I'd sell the Aerius 2000 and keep the A-II. The double has so much versatility and just does too many things for me to ever consider selling it. Jim Bielecki
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 09:49:42 -0800 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Dr. Peter Rand wrote: > Thanks to everybody who wrote me with comments and suggestions. It seems the > more performance-oriented paddlers would favor a single, while sociable paddlers > recommend a double. More affluent paddlers recommend I get two singles or a > single and a double, and one person recommended I get a new girlfriend. I read all the suggestions with amusement. I was surprised to see that no one suggested getting a _second_ girlfriend, which is not exactly as facetious as it may sound. I know paddlers who have companion paddlers of the opposite sex with no sex involved just sea kayaking. > I guess I tend to fall more in the group of sociable paddlers, since I have > no athletic ambitions with the kayak, but rather hope to get out in nature, > enjoy the good weather, have picnics, etc. I live in Vienna, Austria, and the > Danube river is only about 10 minutes away by subway. Within an hour's drive > there are also numerous lakes and other rivers. With the help of the kayak I > hope to discover and enjoy these various bodies of water. Mostly alone, but > occasionally with my girlfriend or a larger touring group. Doctor, I have studied your case carefully, run some clinical tests and sought some outside opinion as well. The Klepper double would be perfect for you since you are not out to win any races when paddling solo and you do hope that your girlfriend will join you sometimes or often, whatever the dice read. Paddling doubles is an interesting litmus test of a person or 2 persons feelings toward society and their own place in it. A person who wishes to share experiences and enthusiasm with others and who feels that helping others is a higher calling than his/her own self-interest is likely to take to a double like a duck to water. A person who feels everybody has to watch out for themselves and is responsible for themselves and who feels that what counts in the world is himself or herself, will find a double the equivalent of floating on a raft resembling the bed of nails favored by Indian fakirs. I confess that those lines are a little overdrawn but I like to get ahead of myself, at times, and April 1 is not too far off. Paul Theroux, a subscriber to my newsletter, and who was kind enough to write the glowing foreword to my book, believes people who paddle doubles should be nominated for sainthood. Which may be true. On page 17 of the book there's a photo of Pope John Paul II in the front seat of a double during his seminarian days back in Poland. Who doubts that when our present pontiff meets his maker that he will not be rushed through the sainting process to a place in the Pantheon of Saints (I forget the term for the hallow halls of sainthood, pantheon sounds nice). Doctor, your title seems to suggest that you are a giver, as most in the medical profession are, and not a taker, which might be the case were your name followed by Esq. (will my lawyer friends ever forgive me; probably yes; lawyers have few friends and have to keep every one they have; it's usually just one). So the double suits you. But wait a minute! What if the Dr. title refers to your being a Doctor of Law! Maybe you better not paddle at all. :-) > In the Complete Folding Kayaker, Ralph states that "Solo paddling is fine" > with the Klepper Aerius II, but "best done with a solo seat". From what I > can tell, the solo seat is no longer necessary, since newer Kleppers all seem > to have movable seats. Is this right? Yes, it is absolutely right. The seat change made two or so years ago allows you some adjustment to a solo position. My own take on doubles: I think paddling in a double with someone you love (like a lover, spouse or child) or some one you like and admire, say a good friend, is a wonderful experience unlike anything else you can do on earth. You are literally in the same boat to share what you see and not find that the other person has drifted off in another single when you spot an otter's head peeking up at you and you can get their attention to marvel with you. It even works with someone you may not like all that much. I traveled some 150 miles in a double with a person with whom I have little in common and never have socialized with or anything. It did not bring us any closer together but it was a rewarding experience which I still cherish to this day. For a few days we were a team, working out our course, our stopping places, keeping ourselves safe in busy waters by spotting dangers looming down on us or lurking out of the corner of one eye. I see some couples who I know love each other and who share a passion for seakayaking but who are in singles. While I know singles offer their own reward, I am saddened because I know that in not having a double in their fleet they are missing some opportunities to regenerate love and reaffirm the spirit of sharing that underlies it. ralph diaz --
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:33:53 -0800 From: Dave Kruger Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dancing in a Double Matt Broze wrote: > >> Ralph wrote: >> >> I see some couples who I know love each other and who share a passion >> for seakayaking but who are in singles. While I know singles offer >> their own reward, I am saddened because I know that in not having a >> double in their fleet they are missing some opportunities to regenerate >> love and reaffirm the spirit of sharing that underlies it. > > I see this very differently. It is my view that the couples who do best in a > double are the ones who have a captain/crew relationship where one person > makes all the decisions and the other always goes along. Communicating with > your partner is also much more difficult in the fore and aft position of a > double rather than with a side by side position (where you can turn to face > each other) than is possible paddling two singles. And you don't hate the > bow paddler for throwing water back in your face with their paddle with > every other stroke or for stopping and starting all the time making it hard > to keep your paddle in sync with theirs. I guess I'd rather have a partner > than a master or a slave. > I got stuck in a double for three weeks once; how I ached for a single. > I realized why they were called "divorce machines" after that. Before I > thought it was just a joke. Owwww! Matt, you are a bigger curmudgeon than I am! My SO and I paddle a double now and then (mostly on multi-day trips in cool places), and we also paddle singles (mostly on day trips). We like both ways, but there is a dimension to the double which is sort of like Ralph's description, and not much like Matt's. I liken it to ballroom dancing, in which the partners move their bodies and feet in tune together, one "leading," to be sure, but both mutually and subtly feeding cues to each other. We also enjoy sharing food and conversation in the double. For us, the double allows more intimacy, and we can talk in lower tones than if we are in separate singles. Sure enough, our paddles clack sometimes when the stern stroker (me, invariably) does not pay attention to the varying cadence of the bow paddler. I regard that as my fault, mainly, and always apologize for the error. In turn, the rudder guy (me) sometimes sends the bow paddler where she does not want to go. She retaliates by directing more of her paddlesplash at my face than usual!! But, these elements are just spice in the pudding, so to speak. We are both gregarious, and both a little headstrong, two qualities which work in opposition in a double, to some extent. But, it makes the double interesting. And, yes, I did divorce the woman I first paddled a double with some 30 years ago, but the incompatibility in the canoe was a symptom of a larger incompatibility in our lives. Even though she and I are friends yet today, we never could ballroom dance together successfully. Maybe that should be the test of whether couples should share a double kayak! Matt, do you dance? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR
From: "Matt Broze" Subject: [Paddlewise] Dancing in a double Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:44:10 -0800 Dave Kruger wrote: > I liken it to ballroom dancing, in which the partners move their bodies and > feet in tune together, one "leading," to be sure, but both mutually and subtly > feeding cues to each other. We also enjoy sharing food and conversation in the > double. For us, the double allows more intimacy, and we can talk in lower tones > than if we are in separate singles. Funny, even though I was in a Feathercraft double (where the cockpits are closer than some) I found that I had to practically yell to have my partner hear me from either the front or back position. Miscommunications were common because of this. The front paddler's ears are facing the wrong way to hear from behind and the front paddlers mouth is also facing the wrong way to be easily heard. Side by side in singles its just an easy turn of the head to be face to face and have a nice conversation and if you want a hug you can get together for that too much more easily in a single. I agree paddling in a double together for a week might be a good test before getting married. Dave later wrote:
>>Matt, do you dance? << I love to dance but don't do it often enough and developed the taste for it later in life. In an earlier post I said that one of the reasons I went to a symposium was for the dance. I do tend to like wild rock and roll and am totally untrained and get pretty wild. once I slow danced with a partner who made me feel that I was a great dancer but I imagine it was she who was the great dancer. As you know, I also dance on skis and back in the 70's was part of a couples act (as well as competing solo) in national freestyle contests. I have also used a double in some kayak races with a female partner and we got along great but then it was only for and hour or two at a time not several weeks. I would rather tow my partner than have to paddle in a double from either position. Then I won't have to deal with: 1)paddle splash--I put on my Sou'wester rain hat, difficulty communicating, 2)paddle clash--and the tension of trying to avoid it for the stern paddler, 3)wet ride for the bow paddle--as a double being longer and with more weight out towards the ends does not rise as well to the seas as a single although (I'll give Ralph a freebie here) folding kayaks that flex can be somewhat dryer--other things being equal), 4)so wide you feel like you're about to give birth in the stirrups just to work the rudder pedals, 5)longer paddles (less efficient and more difficult to control) are necessary--so the stern paddler can reach over the boat and so the bow paddler doesn't set too high a stroke rate for the stern paddler to keep up, 6)having to agree or negotiate every decision. NO THANKS! Matt Broze
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:49:20 -0800 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dancing in a double Matt Broze wrote: I doubt if I will ever convince Matt or anyone who is dead set against doubles of the virtues of paddling one but he enumerates nicely some complaints that actually bring out a whole litany of positive points for this type of boat: > I would rather tow my partner than have to paddle in a double from either > position. Then I won't have to deal with: > 1)paddle splash--I put on my Sou'wester rain hat, difficulty communicating, Man (and woman) were put on earth to suffer, at least that what my R.C. catechism said. Paddle splash, as such suffering goes, isn't all that bad. It certainly bits hell and brimfire. A plus side: the world takes on a surreal, hallucinatory look when seen through salt encrusted glasses...and it is all drug free and free. > 2)paddle clash--and the tension of trying to avoid it for the stern paddler, The nice thing about paddle clash is that it is so easy to blame the other person. How often in life can you feel so justifiably self-righteous and be certain you are right?...paddle clash is always the other paddler's fault. > 3)wet ride for the bow paddle--as a double being longer and with more weight > out towards the ends does not rise as well to the seas as a single although > (I'll give Ralph a freebie here) folding kayaks that flex can be somewhat > dryer--other things being equal) A freebie is always welcome but in truth the person in the bow even in a folding double gets splashed but that also means they act as a windshield...rule one of paddling a double: get somebody big and wide in front and you, the stern paddler, will be as dry as toast. Of course you won't see very much around the hulk sitting in the front. Have some reading material pinned to their back. > 4)so wide you feel like you're about to give birth in the stirrups just > to work the rudder pedals, Gynecologists have been wrestling with what advance to give pregnant women who still want to keep paddling. Matt, your observation holds an answer to this question. > 5)longer paddles (less efficient > and more difficult to control) are > necessary--so the stern paddler can reach over the boat and so the bow > paddler doesn't set too high a stroke rate for the stern paddler to > keep up, Longer paddles are actually good things to have as they make for more headroom when you use them to hold up a tarp (Greenland storm paddles are the worse). Working out that ratio of paddle lengths for the bow and the stern is good for learning higher mathematics; college-bound students can rate advanced math placement if they have paddled a double. > 6)having to agree or negotiate every decision. Do you realize that companies pay big bucks to corporate trainers and facilitators to instill such skills in employees on every level? How much cheaper and more enjoyable it would to take such lessons out of the classroom and put them on the water. > NO THANKS! Matt, this has been just great. The challenges and objections you raise have opened a whole positive side of paddling a double that I never envisioned. YES, THANKS!! :-) ralph :-) --
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