Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:49:15 -0800
From: "richard" 
Subject: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design

For a good explanation of West Greenland hull design, get a copy of the 
"BBK Rationale" by Alan Anderson. $5 from Betsy Bay Kayak
PO Box 1706
Fankfort MI  49635
Al and Betsy Anderson have been designing and building modified West 
Greenland style kayaks for 13 years. This publication contains a lot of 
information on other aspects of kayaking and equipment.

Richard M.



Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:55:23 -0500 
From: Bob Denton
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design

I noticed an ad the other day featuring a computer animation of a Viking
boat. I was struck by the resemblance to some of the Greenland style boats
(and my Nordkapp) I wonder if there wasn't some interaction between the
Vikings and the indigenous peoples of Greenland and Eastern Canada during
the first Millenium?
 
cu



Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:57:30 -0500
From: "John Winters"
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design

What resemblance do you see?  I am unable to see much resemblance. In fact,
I am unable to see much resemblance between the Nordkapp and the kayaks of
Greenland. Perhaps I am missing something.

Cheers,
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/



Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:57:56 -0500 
From: Bob Denton 
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design

I guess the shape of the bow and stern. The view of the boat in the ad is
from the waterline or below.



Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:01:06 -0800
From: "richard" 
Subject: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design


Bob,
   Not having seen the Viking boat you mentioned I can't make a 
comparison. According to what I have read and heard from different 
reliable sources, the kayak migrated eastward from Alaska with the 
nomadic hunters about 1000 AD and reached Greenland a few hundred years 
later. The kayaks that came from Alaska at that time are thought to have 
evolved from some type of decked canoe. East of Greenland, only the 
Irish were known to have seagoing skin boats. It's not impossible that 
other ancient cultures with similar needs in similar circumstances
could have evolved a craft similar to the Greenland kayak.
   The true hallmark of a West Greenland Style kayak is it's hard chine, 
slab sided, low shear construction. I've noticed that more and more 
manufacturers are coming out with " Greenland style " kayaks, but if 
they don't have these features (at least full length hard chines) they 
are not true Greenland design. The decks of Greenland kayaks vary in 
design, but the hull designs pretty much always exhibit these three 
features.

Richard Malarich



Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 07:07:32 -0500
From: "John Winters" 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design

Bob Denton wrote;

Re: comparison between Viking ships and kayaks from Greenland.

>I guess the shape of the bow and stern. The view of the boat in the ad is
>from the waterline or below.


I think you will find that the upswept ends can be found on boats from most
parts of the world. In some cases the upswept ends had aesthetic function
and in some they had sea keeping functions. The feature, nonetheless,
appears to be widespread and could have appeared simultaneously in various
parts of the world.

Keep in mind also that the upswept ends of kayaks made in West and
Southwest appear to be highly localised. In East Greenland the boats had
low ends and flat sheers and the boats built on polar regions had high bows
but low sterns and relatively straight sheers. The conservatism of boat
builders and particularly those who build by eye appears to be universal. A
study of the fishing boats of the Chesapeake Bay, for example, reveals
strong local characteristics even though communication between localities
was common. There exist parallels around the world.

As Richard Malarich suggests, commercial builders have purloined the term
"Greenland kayak" and corrupted it to the point where the public perception
of what constitutes a "Greenland style" kayak has no relationship to the
boats built in Greenland by native people.

To repeat and elaborate on Richard's comments, relative to other types of
Arctic kayaks the boats of Greenland have (in general) a single full length
hard chine, low freeboard, and flat decks and relatively long overhangs
forward. In addition one could add relatively small ranges (relative to
other Arctic regions) of prismatic coefficients, waterplane coefficients,
length/beam ratios, and profile coefficients.

The practice of labelling anything with one or more of these
characteristics as a "Greenland kayak" or "Greenland style" kayak
exemplifies the triumph of advertising over reality.

Cheers,
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/



Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:50:29 -0500 
From: Bob Denton 
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design

If the Vikings actually "Discovered" the new world around 1000 they probably
would have interacted with the locals along the way. I'm sure a boat load of
Vikings would have impressed the indigenous peoples and there may have been
some influence on the future design of their boats. Just a thought.
 
cu



Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:54:32 -0500 
From: Bob Denton 
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design

The features I am rather naively referring to are the aesthetically upswept
ends of both the Viking boats and the West Greenland craft. Your point about
the "Greenland Style" boats is well taken. 

cu



Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:05:21 -0800
From: rdiaz
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design

John Winters wrote:

> As Richard Malarich suggests, commercial builders have purloined the term
> "Greenland kayak" and corrupted it to the point where the public perception
> of what constitutes a "Greenland style" kayak has no relationship to the
> boats built in Greenland by native people.

> 
> The practice of labelling anything with one or more of these
> characteristics as a "Greenland kayak" or "Greenland style" kayak
> exemplifies the triumph of advertising over reality.

I always found it amusing that Folbot hooked on to the idea with the
names of its models.  It came out about 10 years ago with a double and a
single called the Greenland II and Greenland I, respectively.  The
single had a 32 inch beam, huge cockpit, flat bottom...anything but a
Greenlander...East, West, North, South or any points of the compass. 
Well, they did have hard chines anyway. :-)

In a display of chutzpah, Folbot replaced the Greenland I with a model
that shows its neutrality in the kayak design wars...its Aleut 1.  A
shorter version of the Greenland I but no more Aleut than the Greenland
was Greenland.  The company did get a letter from some tribal rep
complaining about the use of the word Aleut.  Both boats would have
driven purists insane.

Don't get me wrong.  I think the models are just fine.  The Aleut is
actually a better boat than the Greenland (I mean the Folbot models in
both cases. :-))  Folbots are good reliable boats, etc.  I would like
them better if they had names such as the Charleston, the Carolina, etc.

ralph diaz   
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069;
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:20:14 -0500
From: "John Winters" 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design

Bob wrote;


>If the Vikings actually "Discovered" the new world around 1000 they probably
>would have interacted with the locals along the way. I'm sure a boat load of
>Vikings would have impressed the indigenous peoples and there may have been
>some influence on the future design of their boats. Just a thought.

What Bob says could have validity but we don't know nor do we have any
artefacts that support an influence or  no influence. Eugene Arima
(personal communication) says that the Inuit tended towards conservatism
and endeavoured to retain their cultural identities. He felt this applied
to the kayaks because the regional differences persisted despite contact
between groups. Each time I read books about the Inuit boats I am struck by
the magnitude of the assumptions made by the writers. Granted, few had any
knowledge of hydrodynamics or the history of naval architecture and that
may explain why they arrived at "facts" woven from faulty or incomplete
observations.

So, the upswept ends may have existed before the Vikings arrived. The
professor might even suggest that the Inuit discovered Scandinavia and that
the Vikings copied the Inuit boats.

Difficult knowing who and what influenced who and what. The research for my
book on Inuit kayaks has unearthed a lot of this kind of thing and the
temptation to make a tenuous connection does get strong. Sort of like the
various conspiracy theories where one ties a lot of coincidences together
in hopes of proving a pre-conceived idea.

For example, some believe that the Irish predated the Vikings so one could
conclude that the Greenland Inuit copied their hide covered boats and
adapted the construction to meet their needs. Thus, the Irish may have
invented the sea kayak and, instead of migrating eastward it migrated
westward to the Aleuts. Sound silly? Not to the fellow that suggested it to
me.

Cheers,
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/



Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:31:07 -0500
From: "John Winters" 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design

Ralph wrote;

(SNIP)

>
>Don't get me wrong.  I think the models are just fine.  The Aleut is
>actually a better boat than the Greenland (I mean the Folbot models in
>both cases. :-))  Folbots are good reliable boats, etc.  I would like
>them better if they had names such as the Charleston, the Carolina, etc.

Oh, Yes indeed.  What about the "Snot and Rags" sea kayak (a tribute to L.
Francis Herreshoff's comment about fiberglass boats. :-)

Or, maybe the "Flippen und Rollen" Sea kayak for German  paddlers. :-)

I like the Redneck for all those who forget to wear their Tilley hats and
drink beer at camp. :-)

I see a great new world of appropriately named sea kayaks. We could work on
the canoe people too. God knows I am sick of all those silly Indian names
for canoes that Canadian canoe manufacturers come up with. Surprised the
Indians don't sue for defamation of character or something.

Cheers,
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://home.ican.net/~735769/.



From: Bob Denton 
Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design

http://www.sciam.com/1998/0298issue/0298hale.html

This is an interesting site on the Viking Longships.

cu



Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:42:02 -0500
From: Steve Cramer 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design

John Winters wrote:
> 
> I see a great new world of appropriately named sea kayaks. We could work on
> the canoe people too. God knows I am sick of all those silly Indian names
> for canoes that Canadian canoe manufacturers come up with. Surprised the
> Indians don't sue for defamation of character or something.
> 
Interesting statement from somebody whose boats are sold with names like
Q400XG. :) Not that I'm so creative.

Both of my canoes were built by Mohawk in Florida, although I think the
original Mohawks lived in New York. The model names are not so
inappropriate, though, since the Viper's hard chines will bite, and I've
been bitten several times while lollygagging. And the Edge...well, 'nuff
said.

Steve
- -- 
Test Scoring & Reporting Services       Sometimes, you never can
University of Georgia                     always tell what you
Athens, GA 30602-5593                       least expect the most.



Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 12:44:09 -0500
From: Michael Daly 
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design

John Winters wrote:

> The practice of labelling anything with one or more of these
> characteristics as a "Greenland kayak" or "Greenland style" kayak
> exemplifies the triumph of advertising over reality.

I tend to think of the two significant variations as "British style"
(Greenland)  due to the popularity of the designs in Britain
and "Northwest Coast style" after the various types
produced in the Northwest coast of the US and Canada, such as
Current Designs, Seaward etc.   These are crude geographic
references and some would be quick to point out the many exceptions,
but they are just as accurate as attributing the designs to the Inuit,
Aleut or other northern first nations.  (Perhaps I should add a
"Winters style" for the low bow type like the Swift North Sea and
Eddyline Carbonlite 2000 ... only because John was the first
to explain the advantages of the style to me. :-)

Two sports I spend most time with these days, Nordic skiing and
kayaking both have real problems with nomenclature.  No one can
agree on the names of freestyle skiing techniques (offset, paddle dance,
uphill V2 etc all describe the same technique in different circles - the
Canadians, Europeans and Americans all have different terminology).
Similarly, I saw a "bow rudder" demonstrated last year, supposedly
"invented" by a Brit that looked suspiciously like a canoeist's bow
pry.  There are of course a gazillion rolling techniques that have
overlapping names.  I can't help but think we could standardize names
so that they are relatively accurate and have the same meaning to
all persons (but maybe that's just because I'm an engineer).